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Once again, Pringle chooses a preacher based on popularity rather than accountability. Pastor Steve Furtick is a controversial pastor that is highly abusive and very controlling. Below is the latest news on Steve Furtick and his Code Orange Revival incident. Phil Pringle is clearly oblivious to the teachers, what they taught at this meeting and the Furtick fiasco behind the scenes,
#CodeOrangeRevival http://bit.ly/zHRTZp WOW! So look 4ward 2 Steve Furtick wit us #Presence2012 10th-13th Aprl http://bit.ly/yylQEb” – Phil Pringle, https://twitter.com/#!/philpringle/status/159429028732874752, 18/01/2012.
HAS PHIL PRINGLE LOOKED AT STEVE FURTICK’S TRACK RECORD?
Steve Furtick has continually proven to demonstrate strong intolerance towards his critics and expresses his disgust to them. His video ‘Hey Haters’ reveals his hypocrisy and immaturity. The video he made reveals how little tolerance he has towards his critics:
He has demonstrated hostility to his own congregation for being disciples and those wanting to know more about Jesus.
In the above sermon, he is noted for also saying,
“If you know Jesus, I am sorry to break it to you, this church is not for you.” – Steve Furtick, Confessions of a Pastor
Quick reminder, he is speaking at C3 Presence Conference. He also says,
“We don’t teach from Books of the Bible because it gets in the way of evangelism. We don’t offer different kinds of Bible studies because it gets in the way of evangelism. We don’t teach doctrine because it gets in the way of evangelism.
If you want to be fed God’s word or have the Bible explained to you then you are a fat lazy Christian and you need to shut up and get to work or you need to leave this church because we ONLY do evangelism.” – Steven Furtick
In saying this, Furtick is rebelling against God’s Word and is going against the great commission that Jesus himself says (emphasis mine),
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
While loving each other and evangelising the world are good things, we need to be careful to tightly hold onto the truth at all costs otherwise the church will be thrown by every wind and wave of doctrine (Ephesians 4). Furtick’s extreme focus on evangelism and emergent Christianity has him breach the following scriptures: John 21:15-17, Luke 10:38-42, Matthew 28:19-2, John 8:31-32, Acts 2:42, Titus 1:7-10, Titus 2:1-10, 2 Timothy 4:1-4, 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.
We have seen the toll of Furtick not remaining theologically faithful. He has endorsed some abusive leaders and heretics for his code Orange Revival 2012. We will see in his Code Orange Revival why it was labelled the Heresy Olympics.
WHAT HAPPENED AT FURTICK’S CODE ORANGE REVIVAL?
While Phil Pringle was wowed by Steve Furticks Code Orange Revival (COR), Chris Rosebrough from ‘Fighting For The Faith’ was appalled by the heresy that was present there. Rosebrough has addressed some problematic key speakers in the past. These included speakers TD Jakes, Perry Noble, Ed Young Jr and James MacDonald just to name a few. Listen to his commentaries on the COR here amidst the Matt Chandler sensorship issue:
BREAKING NEWS: Code Orange Coverup?? **Updated**
Code Orange Revival Weekend 1 Recap
BREAKING NEWS: Elevation Employee Reveals Reason For Chandler Sermon Censorship
Is Steven Furtick the One Whom the Prophets Longed to See?
Code Orange, Revival or Deception?
Laying Hold of Eisegetical Nonsense
The Antidote to Antichrist’s Anti-Truth
2012 Heresy Olympics Medal Ceremony
Chris Rosebrough observed the reaction of Steve Furticks body language to Matt Chandlers sermon. Rosebrough got straight to the point and addressed Steven Furtick’s bad behaviour stating,
“He’ll [Steven Furtick] tolerate any gospel except for the biblical gospel. Yeah, if that isn’t the case then why did he hack that out? Why did he hack it out? That was his first impulse and that’s exactly what he did. He was NOT happy – and you can see it in his body language, you can see it in what subsequently happened with him hacking it out. And the final thing was, well, he was caught red handed. And so he had to make the decision to put the sermon back in through the rebroadcasts at 10:12 and 12:12.” – Chris Rosebrough, Code Orange Revival Weekend 1 Recap: 17:58, http://0352182.netsolhost.com/F4F011612.mp3, 16/01/2012.
The behaviour, decisions and actions of Steve Furtick do highlight his personal issues with proper theological preaching and highlights his immaturity as a pastor.
The Sola Sisters from http://solasisters.blogspot.com.au, also looked to see what happened at the event regarding Chandler and Furtick. Below is their article.
Matt Chandler Goes To Code Orange Where He Exalts Christ, Confronts Narcissistic Man-Centered Preaching, and *poof* He’s Gone
Posted by Christine Pack
For those unaware of the latest brouhaha in Evangelicalism, let me first lay out the facts. Steven Furtick, megachurch pastor at Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, is currently hosting a revival which is running from January 11-22 and is promoted as “a 12 night worship experience to set the stage for 2012.” The event is entitled “Code Orange” to indicate, according to Elevation Church’s website, “a heightened sense of urgency….something significant is about to happen.” The line-up of speakers for Code Orange includes Craig Groeschel, Jentezen Franklin, Matt Chandler, Christine Caine, Ed Young, Israel Houghton, Perry Noble, James MacDonald, T.D. Jakes, etc.
So Matt Chandler, pastor of The Village Church in Highland, Texas, and one of the invited speakers at Code Orange, stood up at Elevation Church and delivered what turned out to be a barn burner of a sermon. In his distinctive delivery style (that is to say, humble, loving, direct and at times laugh-out-loud funny), Chandler took aim at the kind of preaching that has been so aptly termed “Narcissistic Eisegeis,” and at which Steven Furtick, and so many others in the seeker sensitive movement, excel.
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Narcissistic Eisegesis (“Narcigesis”) = Forcing the Bible to mean something you already want it to mean by superimposing yourself into the meaning of the passage, rather than interpreting Scripture for what it means about God, and letting the Scripture simply speak for itself. Conversely, seeking to understand Scripture for what it reveals about God is known as Exegesis, and is also sometimes referred to as the “Literal” or “Grammatical-Historical” approach to interpreting Scripture. Example: The Narcissitic Eisegesis version of David and Goliath would be about you fighting your personal “giants” (i.e., problems, difficulties, setbacks, etc.). The Exegetical approach to interpreting David and Goliath would reveal, instead, an historical account of David’s faith and God supernaturally intervening in an impossible situation for his own glory.
Pastor of The Village Church
Now, back to Elevation Church, Code Orange, and Matt Chandler’s sermon. First of all, before the letters start, I am aware that Matt Chandler is affiliated with Acts 29, has contemplative authors on his site and has claimed audible words from God. I’m not putting a stamp of approval on any of that by posting Chandler’s sermon. The church is in a big muddle today, and I truly do think that we’re in the end times deception, such that even the elect might be deceived. But here’s a thought: maybe part of that playing itself out is that some will appear to be slipping, but when push comes to shove, will stand up and preach Jesus Christ and him crucified. The desire, of course, is for the ones who appear to be slipping to demonstrate that their feet are firmly planted on the Rock of our Salvation – Christ – and it appears to me that Matt Chandler is demonstrating just that. Because really, for Chandler to go to Elevation Church and preach as he did? To stand up before thousands and thousands of people, knowing that his message would not be well received? That could not have been easy, and it demonstrates a fear of God, rather than a fear of man. So the sermon rocked, Christ was exalted, and man was humbled. I can only speak for myself, but I personally need sermons that pierce me and break me and make me lie down on the floor, repenting and crying, and also remind me of the only hope that I have, which is not that I can be great and conquer problems but that God is great and has made a way for wretched sinners (like me) to be reconciled to himself.
But now for the controversial part. Chandler’s sermon was immediately pulled from the Code Orange rebroadcasts. This was pointed out by several Christian writers, including Chris Rosebrough of Fighting for Faith and Ken Silva of Apprising Ministries. Then, the sermon reappeared in subsequent rebroadcasts with a cryptic message from Elevation’s graphic designer about a decision being made to “reformat the content” for the purpose of focusing “the broadcast on Jesus.”
Gary macDougall said:
Everyone trying to re-invent the wheel instead of preaching the gospel Paul preached. In their self inflated egos they think they can preach a higher gospel than Paul. Just another false gospel.
Where is Matt Chandlers video? I don’t see it in this page.
You can watch the Matt Chandler video in our article here:
Lil Miss Kris said:
I am a member of The Village Church. Matt’s sermons are always like this. He usually breaks down scripture chapter by chapter, paragraph by paragraph, line by line. When he preached the book of Hebrews it took like 20 weeks. We’ve been going over the book of Galatians…it also took 20 weeks. He reads a line or two (sometimes he only gets to the fourth word before he is breaking down what is said.) So if you loved this sermon from Code Orange then you’ll love all of his sermons. As a congregation we know that God loves us but the bible isn’t about us. Matt constantly preaches that we are but a small part in this story about God. Yes. When we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior we are spotless, blameless, and right standing before God; but God is about God.
My husband and I were members of Fellowship. The gospel is not preached there. Your money is taken, and to quote Ed Young “If you’re not bringing your 10% to this house, don’t expect to come in here and receive a blessing.” We left after being asked to make F.C. (which is owned by Ed.) a beneficiary of our wills.(the videos I could send you of what he preaches would make you sick to your stomach. He’s the MVP of the church. F.C. is going to heaven because they are church that pay’s their tithe…etc)
I spent a year outside of church. It seemed most churches we went to were only preaching the fluffy side of God (and so much like F.C.) and I just felt so conflicted. When we were invited to T.V.C Matt was going through the book of Job. It was raw. It was gritty. It was painful and at first I felt like some piss ant. But, Matt brought it, he taught it and ultimately I could see that God is about God’s glory and the beauty that is the book of Job.
Matt preaches the word. He preaches the black and white of the bible and doesn’t add anything to ‘soften the blow’.(He often says if you don’t like it, send me your emails I don’t care.) If you can’t take God for WHO HE IS then you just keep reading those feel good books and basking in the love of God and running through that field of daisies. But be warned: You’re not showing the glory of God and that is ultimately what God is all about.
“We don’t teach from Books of the Bible because it gets in the way of evangelism. We don’t offer different kinds of Bible studies because it gets in the way of evangelism.”
– I’m not sure Furtick actually said this. It seems to be a blogger summarising the implications of his teaching which has then been picked up as a quote elsewhere (http://www.extremetheology.com/2007/08/pitting-evangel.html). Take care that your quotes are right… the internet is a place where things can get out of control!
Lil Miss Kris said:
Look up his spot against Matt in The Elephant room. Matt calls him out on that and Steven says yes that’s what he said. He said it confuses people to teach the gospel.
I watched the 5minute Elephant Room spot and still can’t find the exact quote. Chandler seemed to have watched one of the clips of Furtick on youtube where he is driving a wedge between doctrine and evangelism. But Furtick doesn’t use these words in the clip (and neither does Matt in his retelling of it).
My guess is that the words came from the formatting of the extreme theology post (http://www.extremetheology.com/2007/08/pitting-evangel.html) where a summary of Steven’s attitude is set off in precisely the same way as a quote from his talk. Of course, I may be wrong though 🙂
Thank you for bringing this to our attention Anon.
Some sites do say that Furtick DID say the ““We don’t teach…” quote. But they didn’t source. Nor did they source it in the provided link.
In first hearing the two quotes, we didn’t believe either quotes until we watched Steven Furtick say the first quote. We believed that since both were in association with each other with the sermon, the latter quote was expressed in the sermon.
We shall discuss how we should approach this information to make the appropriate changes.
In the YouTube video above from Steve Furtick titled, “Hey Haters”, Steve makes an satanic hand sign at the 1 minute 43 second mark, when he points at his intended audience, by pointing with his index finger and small finger and retracting the two middle fingers. This message that Steve has delivered here is not from the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for pointing this out.
The video does seem like somewhat of an Eminem take off!
The only reason i watched this video is because of your sharp detection skills.
I would say that Furtick has lost himself in the music; the moment;he owns it,he never wants to let it go.He only gets one shot.I hope he does not miss his chance to blow.This opportunity comes once in a lifetime.Yo!
(Hope to here from you soon Andrew)
Thanks alot for your gracious and encouraging comment. I appreciate it very much.
In the Body of Jesus Christ, it’s very important that Christians remark at the appropriate times, “Yes, this is right”, or “No, this is wrong”. That you have responded to me, “Yes, this is right”, is appropriate, encouraging and edifying. It builds the church.
Although it’s pretty obvious from Steve Furtick’s disposition in the video above titled, “Hey Haters”, that he’s attempting to dissuade Christians from denouncing false teachers, one would have to find more instances of Steve Furtick making satanic hand signs in his preaching videos, in order to persuade Christians that he is a Satanist (despite that this is an awkward sign to make so that it’s conclusive that he’s making it deliberately in the video above).
There must be countless hours of Steve Furtick preaching on the internet. I have no doubt that there are more satanic signs there waiting to be found. The reason that I saw the satanic hand sign in the video above is that I was looking for it.
Thanks again for your affirmation, EYES. I really appreciate it. (And thanks alot to C3ChurchWatch for this outstanding forum.)
Got a bit angry at this,
…If you know Jesus,I am sorry to break it to you,this church is not for you.”-Steve Furtick,Confessions of a Pastor.
You people are nuts…
Clayton Young said:
I don’t have time to nick pick every minister that is living on the edge of faith. They take risks because of faith. Look at Peter stepping out of the boat; he wasn’t perfect; you can point lots of fingers at Peter for all kinds of issues and mistakes but Jesus restored his relationship. Jesus has grace to restore relationships. I hope there is grace in your spirit. If not, pray for this minister or any minister that bothers you.
Matter of fact, you can point fingers and point errors out and sins out of 100% of all ministers in the world (every Believer too). I’m 100% sure every minister in the world will make mistakes for the rest of their lives.
My son is 5. He’s made so many mistakes but I want him to take risks. He’s going to make mistakes for the rest of his life — that is a guarantee. I’m not asking you to not to point out errors but the attitude needs to change.
You will have material to always point out stuff wrong. Let’s use the energy to ensure the hearts of God’s people are right, continue to pursue God with passion — look at Daniel who was blessed under foreign rule, his rule and relatives were killed yet he loved the leader of the nation who destroyed his nation. Will you love these you point out their errors — true love where it shows in your prayer life and attitude?
Will you be truthful in examine your own heart and let God speak to your heart to help examine thoughts, attitudes…?
Every minister you have shot arrows at, please note they are children of God; they are a son of God (good and bad, imperfections and all). Pray for them, pray for them, love them through prayer — they have to answer to God not you. I’m not saying ignore errors and false teaching but no minister nor Believer has 100% understanding of all truth. I also know you don’t know all truth — no one does other than God.
Let’s devout our energy to see more turn to God for Salvation and more turn to God to turn their fire and passions on to see supernatural moves that change our culture for the kingdom of God.
Slander and the spirit that it comes from can be very dangerous. Beware because the enemy also works in division, pride, arrogance…. don’t be a tool of the enemy by letting self-righteousness and knowledge blind you from the very heart of God. I hope it is not too late.
I have issues with my church that I attend. We are missing out on things that I know would be awesome. The bottom line, my pastor loves the Lord and He wants to see people come to a personal relationship with God and fulfill their calling in Jesus Christ. We agree on that. I’m praying that God would expand my pastors faith. Sometimes my attitude get’s the best of me and I have to get it right by praying for the ministers of my church — blessing, increased faith, passion and etc… It does wonders for my faith, joy, and peace.
I don’t know all the ministers you target but I know some of them love the Lord so passionately and they want to see people experience salvation and transformation.
If these ministers don’t do things the way you think they should — be careful. Jesus did some “wierd” things too — he made mud pies and put them on a blind person’s eyes, he told one of his disciples to fetch money from a fish, he allowed demons to transfer to pigs, he turned water to wine (he provided alcohol at this wedding), Jesus spoke in parables most of the time, ….. He did things because He is God. If God told these ministers to do something that you feel is inconsistent with the Bible, it is possible you may be error too. Be careful about judging (I’ve done it and I have to be careful too, I’m not trying to point fingers at just you but myself too.)
Are you able to pray blessing on these ministers that you write about? Can you honestly pray that God will bless them, enlarge their borders, that His favor would increase upon them….? If they are in error, ask the Holy Spirit to point it out in them. Can you pray with that kind of gracious attitude? If not, it’s dangerous where you stand.
Thanks for letting me post.
If you watch Steve Furtick’s eyes in the “hey haters” video, you can see what his problem is: he has “passengers”.
No one who is demonised should be putting themselves forward as a “pastor” or “leader”, and no one in their right mind should be sitting under the “teaching” of such a man.
To Clayton Young,
It is important for all Christians to examine their own faith walk and to be open to correction. We have been open to correction and have made corrections thanks to our critics.
If criticisms or claims are made against us using scripture, we examine such claims. We look at the context, context, context, the greek or hebrew, a few commentaries and then correct ourselves or dispute back why that persons claim is not biblical.
Phil Pringle boasts of his greatness and the great leaders C3 produces. His claims seem to be inaccurate at best since the requirements of God say that a teacher/leader of a church needs to be above reproach and handles the word of God correctly. Pringle and his leadership aren’t. They are in gross error and in the danger of eternal damation that Paul placed on false teachers who preached a different gospel.
Phil Pringle is no 5 year old child. Yet he is putting all his “energy to ensure the hearts of God’s people are wrong” with his daily scripture mangling, false faith and gospel and dedication in preaching money. In fact he creating false converts when he leads people to Jesus without the gospel. How can Pringle say he loves God and loves man when he does not care about his own actions?
“Every minister you have shot arrows at, please note they are children of God; they are a son of God (good and bad, imperfections and all).”
Pringle has demonstrated that he practices and believes a New Age gnostic deity where his Jesus is reduced to a magic formula that when spoken can grow your bank balance and create your potential destiny. We encourage you to browse our archives, read those articles and then put forth your case why we are wrong.
The church is called not to pray, support and love wolves but to judge them, reject them, cast them out and only accept such men when they have repented (to change ones mind) from their false teachings. Jim Bakker was a classic example. Our only prayer is that Pringle repents (changes his mind) and returns to faithfully preaching the gospel and handling Gods Word.
C3 and Phil Pringle has a lot to offer Christianity – at the moment we strongly advise any Christian to avoid this movement for the sake of their salvation. If you disagree with anything we have said above, please dispute on the grounds on what Pringle teaches and what the bible says.
“Slander and the spirit that it comes from can be very dangerous.”
Which is what avoid. We let Pringle speak for himself and come to logical conclusions.
“If these ministers don’t do things the way you think they should — be careful. Jesus did some “wierd” things too”
Yes – but it was Jesus that was harsh on the leaders and sent the benchmark for how a pastor is to operate. We are only asking that C3 operate from the benchmark Jesus set. Otherwise they are rebelling against Jesus’ instruction – not our standard. We are simply pointing out that C3 leadership are no where near the standard that Jesus Himself set the mark at.
“If God told these ministers to do something that you feel is inconsistent with the Bible, it is possible you may be error too.”
Valid point. But you would notice that we do our best to demonstrate clearly where they go wrong. This article is a clear example where Pringle is completely off the wall:
Please read our pages at the top to see the growing list of Pringle’s false prophecies, garbled bible scriptures, mocking, slanderous claims against Christians and scandals that have rocked various areas in the C3 Church Movement.
Thanks for your concern of our heart and loving us in a way to keep us on the straight and narrow. We have received your words. We pray you have received ours.
C3 church watch is awesome. I’m so encouraged that there are discerning Christians that stand up for the truth. My hope is restored as the church world has gone crazy (not all, of course). Steve Furtick has definately got passengers and satanic is the first thing that I saw when I watched that horrific video. I’m still in shock as I’ve never heard of him before never though that sort of stuff would be going on. It’s very dangerous.
Stephen Stanton said:
Why do you guys do this kind of stuff? I’m serious like why bash someone for getting people closer to God. I went through a rough time at the beginning of the year and I started going to Elevation and not only did it improve my life as a whole but I’ve never been closer to God in my whole life. Why bash a preacher that gets to people? I’ve been to many different churches but none have been quite like Elevation. Yet I don’t bash those other churches like you guys do because they aren’t what I like. We are all Christians yet you try to fight with one another, and are being hypocrites and also what gives bad names to Christians. There are far worse people you should be trying to fry (such as antichrisitans) rather than one of your own. You should all be ashamed. Btw I’m a 21 year old college student. If I can see this and you can’t then there is something truly wrong.
@Stephen Stanton – you say “why bash a preacher that gets to people”?
Because it’s Christ that needs to be the one who “gets” to people, and it’s Christ Himself who warns of false teachers, false prophets and wolves. Practicing discernment is not “bashing”…
May I recommend to you some sound teaching that is very revealing about certain men in pulpits today?
Be blessed as you listen…..
@ Stephen Stanton – what are you learning at Elevation Church that’s bringing you closer to God? Does that closeness include understanding the doctrines of grace?
Does that closeness cause you to rejoice in His grace?
Have a look at the attached links and listen to Ps.Furtick’s views on grace and perhaps let me know if you agree?.
“Steven Furtick says that he wants Elevation Church to be…
“…a church for the overlooked, for the unloved…we preach Jesus so people far from God can know Jesus. And then we train them up so that others can know Jesus. It is called Kingdom multiplication. It is what Elevation Church is all about.”
This is fine. Preaching Jesus so people can come to know him is admirable and is one of the things the Christian church is supposed to do.
Mocking the doctrines of grace
However, shortly after the above quote in the same video and after speaking of multiple conversions occuring at his church, he said…
“…if that doesn’t get you excited and you need the doctrines of grace as defined by John Calvin to excite you, you in the wrong church. Let me get a phone book. There are 720 churches in Charlotte. I am sure we can find one where you can stuff your face until you’re so obese spiritually that you can’t even move.”
The problem with Mr. Furtick’s comments are both subtle and profound. The Doctrines of Grace are often described by the acronym TULIP. Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. This is often called Calvinism. In other words, the doctrines of grace affirm that man is completely lost in his sin and it is only by the grace of God through the person of Jesus that salvation is possible. It is not up to man’s sinful free will, but God’s sovereignty over his creation (Rom. 9:22-23; Eph. 1:4-5). It further states that because of man’s enslavement to sin he is unable to freely choose God (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the doctrines of grace include God’s electing and predestining people to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13), which is by God’s choice, not man’s (John 1:13; Rom. 9:16), and that the saved are eternally secure because their salvation rests in Christ’s work, not man’s faithfulness (John 10:27-28). Now, whether or not you agree with these doctrines, the truth is that they affirm the greatness of God and his sovereign work of saving people. They are held by millions of Christians all over the world.
Mr. Furtick is entitled to not agree with the doctrines of grace, but to mock them as he did is uncalled for and is potentially a serious spiritual error on his part. It seems that he is not only ridiculing those who hold to the doctrines of grace, but that he is also mocking the very doctrines which the scriptures teach. Is not God a God of grace? Of course he is (Rom. 3:24; 11:6, Eph. 2:8; 2 Thess. 1:12). Mr. Furtick’s mockery divides the body of Christ, helps to create a holier-than-thou attitude and potentially risks a direct violation of scripture.”
Stephen, tough words but as you continue drawing closer to God, make sure you’re in a church that helps rather than hinders, (which is why i commend to you John Macarthur and his fine teaching)
Re: your quoting of CARM and their anti female preacher stance.
For a balanced view on that issue, I would encourage folks to visit Christians For Biblical Equality. Check out their blog and under “Resources” their free articles.
Some Christians are biblical gender egalitarians and do not see a biblical injunction against female preachers. See CBE for more.
Re: your quoting of CARM and their anti female preacher stance.
For a balanced view on that issue, I would encourage folks to visit Christians For Biblical Equality.
Check out their blog and under “Resources” their free articles.
Some Christians are biblical gender egalitarians and do not see a biblical injunction against female preachers. See CBE for more.
(I am sorry if this is a double post. My first one didn’t seem to go through. If this is a repeat please feel free to remove it.)
@ missdaisyflower – thanks for the link. If I may commend to you….
“The Council On Biblical Manhood & Womanhood” – http://cbmw.org/
As a former egalitarian, I now hold to the complementarian position, understanding that the egalitarian view (particularly Galatians 3:28) refers back to a salvific position, not roles of authority, in the church.
And if we look at the Trinity, we see a “functional hierarchy” – the Son submitting to the Father, the Holy Spirit submitting to both the Father and the Son.
God in three persons – differing in function.
I clearly see in the biblical text, an equal value positionally for men and women – at the same time seeing gender roles within the body of Christ that demonstrate that same “functional hierarchy” of the Trinity.
What I see happen more and more is God’s Word having to adapt to man’s view rather than man submitting to His final word on all matters – its not an open canon subject to changing cultures.
I used to be a gender complementarian and my mother was one. I became an egalitarian later in life after realizing several things, one of which is that complementarianism is codependency being taught under a Christianese veneer, and it is very harmful to women.
I also note that gender comps only have a small number of verses (usually plucked out of context) to support their view, when the overwhelming sense of Scripture is the one of equality in worth and in roles of all people – the Holy Spirit does not dole out gifts based on gender.
Lastly, teaching that the son Jesus is eternally subordinate to the Father is heresy.
@missdaisyflower – Jesus has something to say about the Father……
John 14: 28 “You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
WHY JESUS IS GREATER THAN THE HOLY SPIRIT
by C Michael PattonJuly 16th, 2013
“I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. This is how I would formulate this doctrine:
I believe in one God (ousia), who exists eternally in three persons (hypostasis) — God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit — all of whom are fully God, all of whom are equal.
Since there is only one God, one member of the Trinity, in his essence, cannot have more power, authority, or dignity than another. They all share in the exact same nature (ousia, ontos, “stuff”). I did not understand this until later in my Christian life. For many years I existed as a functional polytheist (a tritheist, to be technically precise). I believed the three members of the Trinity shared in a similar nature, not the exact same nature. In other words, just like you and I share in the nature of being homo sapiens, so the members of the Trinity are all from the “God species” . . . or something like that. But this is a bad analogy since, though you and I may be the same species, we are different in essence. You are you and I am me. I have my body and you have yours. But in the Trinity, all three persons share in the exact same essence. One in nature; three in person. One what; three whos.
Confused? Good. Anytime you have an “aha!” moment with regard to the Trinity, it is a good sign you have just entered into the world of heresy.
While I don’t believe there is an ontological hierarchy (gradation of essence, or all that stuff I said above), I do believe there can be a hierarchy in person. In other words, one member of the Trinity can take on a different rank than another. I think we can all agree that at the incarnation, this hierarchy presented itself as Father, then Son, then Spirit. After all, even Christ said that the Father was greater than he was (John 14:28). This is sometimes called a “functional hierarchy.” This should not be too difficult to process, as we can see many analogies to this in our own world. For example, President Obama is greater than I am in one respect. He is the President of the United States. Therefore, his position and authority are greater than mine. But he is not greater in essence. Similarly, parents are greater than children in rank. But they are not greater in their being. And (cover your eyes, egalitarians) I believe the Bible presents the husband as having greater authority than his wife. However, he is not greater in his ontos or humanity.
When it comes to the Holy Spirit, I believe the Holy Spirit is last on the divine authority totem pole. The Father sends the Son, the Son sends the Holy Spirit, and the Father is sent by none. There is much less said about the Holy Spirit in the New Testament than either the Father or the Son. But as far as honor and dignity, it would seem that Jesus Christ tops them all. When I read the Bible, I am struck by how much Christ is the center of all things. He is the image of God which is seen, the one who becomes incarnate and relates to humanity more than any other, he is the one who calls us friend, he is our intercessor, and he is the one in whom we are to believe for eternal life. In fact, the very name of our faith finds its basis in his name. It is not called Holy Spiritanity or Fatheranity. It is not even called Yahwehanity. It is called Christ-ianity.
Another way to think about it can be illustrated as follows: The first two members of the Trinity have very relational names. We find it easy to relate to the title “Father,” since most of us have an example (though not perfect) through our earthly fathers. So “Father” is endearing. And “Jesus” is a personal name. I figure that he will always go by that handle. And the father may always go by “Father.” But what about the Holy Spirit? “Holy Spirit” is such a distant and (forgive me) cold name. Is that really his name? First name “Holy” last name “Spirit”? Do those who are close to him just call him “Holy,” while everyone calls him “Mr. Spirit”? Maybe in heaven we can get the insider scoop on what his real name is (not Yahweh…that is a Trinitarian name, as they are all Yahweh). Maybe Bob, John, Nate, or Michael. Just something more personal, as I envision having a very distinct relationship with him in the new earth.
My point is this: the Holy Spirit, while having equal power, authority, and diginity as the Father and the Son, and having the same nature as Jesus and the Father, is the least spoken about and recognized of all three members of the Trinity. By the way, before you begin to feel sorry for him, realize this: this is intentional. The Holy Spirit does not seek air time. We often talk about Christ’s humility (and rightly so), but we rarely recognize the Holy Spirit’s humility. His primary purpose is not to get you to recognize him (as deserving as he is), but to recognize Christ.
In the Upper Room Discourse (John 14-17, the most Trinitarian section of the Bible), Christ speaks a lot about sending the Holy Spirit (sometimes called “the Helper” or “the Spirit of Truth”), but notice what the primary goal of the Holy Spirit will be:
“When the Helper [Holy Spirit] comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.”
Did you get that? The all-powerful, omniscient, everlasting creator of all things — the Holy Spirit — will not testify about himself, his glory, and his person, but about Christ, whom the Holy Spirit loves with a greater love than we ccould ever imagine. Why doesn’t the Holy Spirit testify about himself? After all, he has every reason to pat himself on the back and toot his own horn, yet all he wants to talk about is Jesus.
I can’t tell you how the role distinctions were chosen for redemption. It is possible that the Holy Spirit could have been the one who became incarnate and died on the cross. It could have been the Holy Spirit to whom all attention was given. Yet this is not the case. He elected to humble himself to the point of almost non-recognition.
I believe the Holy Spirit is just as much God as the Father and the Son. I believe the Holy Spirit deserves as much honor as the other members of the Trinity. Yet the greatest way for you to honor the Holy Spirit and evidence his work in you is to glorify Christ. What an example He is.
Why is Jesus greater in function than the Holy Spirit? Because that is the way he wants it. Amazing!
@missdaisyflower – It would be interesting to hear of the women you consider to be significantly gifted and “called” of God to preach to the church (or mixed congregation). Obviously this is a matter of God-given spiritual authority not function.
When I look through history to this day, I’m having a problem thinking of anyone!
I certainly don’t have a problem with women teaching other women, acting as worship leaders, or instructing children.
Titus 2:3-5 ESV “Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.”
You say “complementarianism is codependency being taught under a Christianese veneer, and it is very harmful to women.”
To which I say, that’s absolute nonsense.
But in all fairness, I don’t know you or what you may have been exposed to – there have been many abuses by men in particularly legalistic churches to this day.