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A subscriber to C3 Church Watch gave us some interesting insight to the Pringle’s beginnings.
“In Phil’s book he talks about hundreds of converts coming into the church after he was saved. The first ‘hippy’ type convert at the AOG Sydneham, Christchurch at that time was a guy called Leigh Hoskins. who had a more dramatic experience than Phil. Leigh took me along the night he was saved . I was saved about three weeks after Leigh. I was the second hippy type convert at that time. Leigh used to winess to me nearly every day so effectively he was the catalyst for the revival. Leigh and I witnessed to scores of people before Phil and Chris came to church and already young people were coming in. Phil and Chris personally didn’t bring large numbers in but the church was already starting to multiply. Our church wasn’t the only one with this sort of revival. Ray Comfort was saved at the same time in another church on the otherside of town with a similar ‘revival’. The effectiveness of the Pringle’s early ‘ministry’ is highly debatable as most of their ‘disciples’ drifted by the wayside. Even their best friends and first converts, Wayne and Anne Tyndale dropped out after a couple of years and the last I heard several years ago they were still backslidden.” – Gary MacDougall, http://www.facebook.com/groups/c3churchwatch/291925204197120/, 6:24pm, 24/01/2012. (Accessed 11/03/2012)
Below is an article of what C3 wants you to read about their beginnings. Read this to compare the differences of reporting between the events.
The History of Phil Pringle & The C3 Movement
Gary MacDougall has politely provided his insight and his testimony in that time period. Thank you Mr MacDougall for your honesty, work, time and integrity.
Gary MacDougall Testimony
I was born again about 35 years ago at AOG, Sydneham, Christchurch, New Zealand, in the seventies hippy era. The first ‘hippy’ type convert at the AOG Sydneham, Christchurch, where I was born again, at that time, was a guy called Leigh Hoskins. Leigh had a far more dramatic experience than myself or Phil and Chris Pringle of C3 Church, and all other converts who started coming. Leigh took me along to the AOG church, the night he was saved . In fact I had just returned from Auckland, doing a meditation course, and was waiting for a taxi at the Christchurch train station at about 7.15pm on a Thursday night, over 35 years ago, when Leigh drove by and stopped to talk to me. I had never met Leigh before but a mutual friend was with him in his little car. Leigh was on his way to AOG for the Thursday night young people’s meeting at 7.30pm. Leigh had the longest and thickest hair I have ever seen on a male (in real life and in photos) and this guy was really wild!
Why would he be going to church? On the previous Tuesday night he took enough LSD to last 48 hours. As soon as his trip started he saw flames and demons around him and he thought he was in hell. However when he was a child he went to Sunday school and, at that time, his mother had been praying and fasting for forty days for his salvation. Leigh called out to Jesus as loud as he could at the beginning of his ‘hell experience.’ …”Jesus”, “Jesus”, ‘Jesus save me” he called out for help. His trip instantly stopped, when he mentioned the name of Jesus, which is obviously a miracle. He then rang the AOG church because his mother belonged to that denomination and she was attending another AOG church in the North Island. A deacon from the church told Leigh to go along on the next Thursday night which was the divine appointment whereby I met him i.e. two days after Leigh’s ‘hell experience.’ Leigh’s actually going to church was another miracle because the devil had two days to talk him out of it. Leigh was saved that night when we attended the young people’s meeting. By the way the conservative, young church folk at that time had never before seen anything like us guys up close with our long hair and hippy clothes. Leigh used to come round and talk to me about Jesus regularly and I could see that he was transformed. Leigh experienced a more dramatic conversion than myself, the Pringles or any others who followed. A church member bought him a whole new set of clothes when he was first saved and after about two weeks he had full haircut i.e. short back insides. He brought many people into our church. I was saved about three weeks after Leigh . It took many months for myself and Phil Pringle to get our hair trimmed and then only gradually. Although at the beginning I did have a clean shave and got rid of my beard. Phil had long hair for quite a while indicating that the inner transformation was slow. Leigh was quickly transformed in his heart and life.
The church already had about 200-250 solid members when Leigh and I joined. Leigh was witnessing full time and effectively he was the catalyst for the revival at AOG , Sydneham. He was the original young evangelist of the church and because he had such a dramatic outward appearance change he was effective with his old friends. I believe the ’revival’ at AOG Sydneham began through Leigh Hoskins although others have taken credit for it. When saved I joined up with Leigh with evangelizing. When I was first saved for the first two years or so I spent about 5-6 hours per day praying and reading the word and then a few hours evangelizing and attending meetings at our church and others nearly every day of the week. I walked-no bicycle just walking. The Pringles were more upmarket than myself-they had bicycles. It used to take me about a 45 minute walk each way to church from where I lived with another couple of stronger Christian guys. Leigh and I witnessed to scores of people before Phil and Chris Pringle of C3 Church came to our church several weeks after I was saved and already young people were coming into AOG Sydenham. Phil and Chris personally didn’t bring large numbers in but the church was already starting to multiply. Leigh and I motivated Phil and Chris with evangelizing. However before we came along the church had a few really effective and dedicated personal evangelists, one of them being Morrie Tattle, a businessman who was the man who helped Leigh with his new clothes. The church also had a lot of serious prayer warriors and dedicated Christians. The prayer warriors were the key to the ‘revival’ but everyone forgets them and pat themselves on the back and blow their own trumpets.
Whilst Leigh had a dramatic outward change it took some time before he was baptized and a couple of years to sort out his life towards normality. In my own personal case, if I said I was zapped the night I was saved, healed, delivered and baptized, I would be dead set the world’s biggest liar and con. It didn’t happen that way. God does NOT wave a magic wand. From a hippy type lifestyle one inherits many evil influences and even evil spirits. It took many months for me to be healed in my mind from the effects of drugs and about one year to be completely delivered. It took about one year before I was baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit. This is logical…because of my lifestyle I had some evil spirit possession. A Christian needs to be set free of this before being filled with the Holy Spirit. Physically I could not do any more, as I was praying and reading the word to the max…and also fasting a lot-up to 21 days. However God works in His way and own time to heal and release us. Basically there are no Hollywood style dramatic zappings.
Our church wasn’t the only one with this sort of revival. Ray Comfort was saved at the same time in another church on the other side of town with a similar ‘revival’. The Elim church in N.Z. also experienced a revival at the same time.
Peter Morrow’s New Life Centre had about ten times the number of people in their main church and it was experiencing growth as well. That church had some fantastic Christians with amazing testimonies as well.
As I went to all the meetings in the years of the revival in our church I was there the night Phil and Chris Pringle of C3 Church were saved. Phil talks about the night he was saved and claims he was delivered and filled with the Holy Spirit and all his problems taken away that night. Anyone reading this would think it was a Damascus Road experience like the Apostle Paul. Wrong! The main deacon who counseled him that night told me personally that Phil was only counseled about salvation. I spoke to the Pringle’s after their salvation also that night and it was exciting they were saved but from my recollection nothing like what Phil describes in his book. I encouraged them to keep coming back and eventually after considerable time they had some deliverance and were filled with the Holy Spirit. In those days at our church ‘deliverance’ was not done the way Jesus did by just rebuking the devils. The deacons used to jump up and down shouting at the demons, pleading the blood and shaking you. I know first hand because I went through this sort of carry on myself. It usually took a few hours and was not instantaneous as in Bible days.
Peter Driscoll and John Graham were the youth leaders and had been for a long time and were great Christian leaders in our church. They were also good teachers of sound doctrine. However the pastors of the church, the Barton’s, tried to push the Pringles into their position. It was like two young people’s groups contending for the new converts, within the church. This was one of the reasons the Barton’s were voted out of the church by the members.
Also the members didn’t like the way the Bartons were focusing on the Pringles at the expense of the rest of the flock. The Bartons also used the Church’s money to buy a large house, called Hebron House, for the Pringles and new converts. There was a lot of flack about that , especially as the real estate agent was a member within our church. Hebron house eventually became a burden for the church and the church ditched it. Of Course the agent in the church sold it.
Fortunately in my early Christian life I went to the sound teaching meetings of Peter Driscoll and John Graham and didn’t get led astray by the crazy stuff going on at Hebron House where the Pringles were operating. The Pringle’s could not teach sound doctrine to the new converts as they were only learning themselves. They had many problems themselves and were basically transferring that to new converts. If the new converts had been exposed to the sound teaching meetings of Peter and John they would probably be Christians today as most of the new Christians under the Pringle’s “ministry” at Hebron House, backslid. Also they had come from strong New age and hippy backgrounds and weren’t delivered from those influences at the time. The effectiveness of the Pringle’s early ‘ministry’ is highly debatable as most of their ‘disciples’ drifted by the wayside. Even their best friends and first converts, Wayne and Anne Tyndale dropped out after a couple of years and the last I heard several years ago they were still backslidden.
The Pringles were a big factor in the split of the church when the Bartons and Pringles left. The Pringles influenced most of the young people to leave as well but I stayed at the church until many years later and then I moved to Australia. In fact the split caused by the Pringles and Bartons, also caused John Graham and Peter Driscoll to leave the church as well, which was a pity. The scenario with the Pringles and Bartons sent the church into turmoil and it took about a year to stabilize.
Fortunately in my early Christian life, I met an elderly Christian man, similar to Job in the Bible, who lived next door to where I was living. He helped stabilize my Christian life while the disruptions in the church were occurring. For 2-3 years I used to go to his house for a couple of hours at a time for extra bible study. He was house bound due to sickness and I was his only visitor apart from his son who visited maybe twice a year. No-one from his church visited him.
I also had regular spiritual support from a strong Christian couple and from time to time even scored a lift by car to and from church. That was great because it saved the 45 minute walk each way. But the downside was I couldn’t witness when going by car, like I could when walking.
During this time I was living by faith. The Pringles and other new converts at Hebron House had their needs supplied by the church, which funded everything for the house group. Maybe at this stage the Pringles realized you could live off the church and even make money through it. I had to daily believe God for my needs and of course he provided. I did not have to bludge money out of the church. God was my source. In fact I never had any support from the church. God miraculously provided.
When my elderly neighbour died I stayed with the elderly deaconess of our church in a self contained flat under her house on the hill overlooking the city. By then I had progressed to a bicycle and used to bike all around the city delivering tracts which I produced and paid for myself. My first tract, which I had printed about the time the Pringles were saved, was a black and white one called “Hippie redeemed from Destruction” with before and after photos of myself. I think I had about 5,000 of those printed which I personally handed out. My next one was similar but with the title “Searching”, with the before and after photos. I maybe had 10,000 of those printed and I personally gave out. Then I did one with a red cover with the word “Revolution…” on the front. (this was the time of Chairman Mao). Inside as part of the “revolution…” I had “…of Love” and the story of God’s love. Then I had printed a four sided booklet in full colour titled “The Desert Shall Blossom as The Rose” with my testimony again. I had 25,000 printed and personally gave out each one. Then before I moved to Australia I printed a dramatic black and white with the words “IF you Died in the Next Two Minutes Where would you spend Eternity?” I printed enough for every single Post Office box in New Zealand and paid NZ post a fee to deliver. That one was very effective.
While all these things were happening and a couple of years after I was saved I started studying landscaping and eventually expanded into Australia and moved over to Brisbane to start a new business there designing landscapes. In Brisbane
I attended Garden City Church which is an AOG and later Christian Outreach Centre. I ended up getting some work opportunities on the Gold Coast , one hour from Brisbane and started my business there and became very successful on the Gold Coast. About six years ago, the pastor of the AOG church I was attending, had an outreach in Vietnam and I ended up funding the venture and his trip and coming over with him. On that trip I came in contact with a client doing a big project and started coming over every 2-3 months. I met my Vietnamese wife here and got married and moved over and started building up business in Vietnam. Now I design landscapes in Vietnam and live in Nha Trang near the central Coast. In fact the city is similar to what the Gold Coast was like 20 years ago. I now attend the Evangelical Church of Vietnam.”
Gary has a lot of it right
The problem was the teachings of Pringle and to a degree Tindall his acolyte. controlled the young folk of the church.
Their exceptionally legalistic view of boy/girl relationships and sexuality caused to my view the biggest wrong.
This teaching was carried on by another hippy seeing Jesus or was it good dope. one Alan Boddy along with his acolytes especially Darryl Reeves.
Young folk got interested and formed relationships and married in a blaze of quick fire weddings carrying with them the baggage of bad counselling and teaching on sexuality by people who.s sexual background was questionable or who lacked experience in relationships and sexuality
The result. Very few of the weddings at AOG at that time have survived with pulpit unfaithfulness .coming out and other things being revealled
Thankfully I was not totally into it as I always said why as opposed to how high to jump when asked to try some new teaching.
The interesting thing to ask is why all the Boddy and Pringle co all dissapear from Sydenham to Australia and gut the local church……all the heirachy left and carried the cancer across the ditch.
I am not a prophet but a beliver in history gives us a pattern of what lies ahead for the Pringles.Houstons and others who preach a false Pauline inspired doctrine based on the name of Jesus dogma and I believe they will one day pay the price.
I remember Gary fondly and wish him the best and thank him for his courage on speaking out.
Gary MacDougall said:
Yonathon, I think a lot of the blame goes with the Bartons and particularly Mrs. She was match making like crazy. She was trying to marry me off to Arlene but it wasn’t God’s will so I ignored her “revelation.” Wayne and Anne were pushed together by the bartons as well. The wedding of the Pringles was all wrong. basically they should have ceased from living together for a while and then got married in God’s time. Remember Pastor Nathaniel from Fiji had to pray for the two of them (Phil and Chris) shortly after they were married that the mess would be fixed up.Alan Boddy basically filled the gap that Phil occupied, after the Bartons and Pringles had stripped the church of enthusiastic new converts and split it as well. John Graham and Peter Driscoll, who were stable solid teachers, left with the split. Then suddenly Alan Boddy jumped into the youth leader position.However he was a better option than the Pringles because at least he somtimes had a good sermon. Darryl Reeves father was a pastor living out Woodend way. i used to travel out and spend the day with him and Darryl’s mother talking about the Lord ALL day.Darryl was never there.
My friend Tony Walker was an example of one who Yonathon describes above:-
“Young folk got interested and formed relationships and married in a blaze of quick fire weddings carrying with them the baggage of bad counselling and teaching on sexuality by people who.s sexual background was questionable or who lacked experience in relationships and sexuality
The result. Very few of the weddings at AOG at that time have survived with pulpit unfaithfulness .coming out and other things being revealled”
Yonathon is right about the immature teaching-it was a case of the blind leading the blind and all falling into a ditch.The Bartons suddenly shoved the Pringles and Tyndals onto a huge pedestal and now we have the situation where Phil thinks the whole Body of Christ revolves around him and if he doesn’t get full time attention then he will sulk in a corner.He has created a false cult to create an aura of attention around himself. At the beginning it was Phil and Chris and now still is-the Bartons are partly to blame for this.As for the Tyndals they spun out of Christianity after only a few years.
“The interesting thing to ask is why all the Boddy and Pringle co all dissapear from Sydenham to Australia and gut the local church……all the heirachy left and carried the cancer across the ditch.”
Many of the elders and deacons in the church were concerned when Alan left because the church had helped him get to the level where he was , then suddenly he left.
Phil gutted the church that splintered off from AOG.
AOG offered the Bartons a full time national evangelical position but they rebelled and split our church and startd their own one with the Pringles. Now pringle is still gutting and splintering and taking over churches and putting them under the C3 cult.
AOG’s problems stem from further back than that era Gary.
I had been involved with Sydenkham AOG since about 1962 when Ralph R Read a conservative preacher was pastor and head of AOG NZ.
There were manouverings from the wonderboy of AOG, a disgraced pedophile named Frank Houston who ousted Read and then began the rein of rot in the churches in NZ,
Susequent AOG leaders followed and at least four of the next leaders were involved either in adultery or immoral practises.
Houston snr IMHO knowing he was going to be outed as a peodophile jumped sip to Oz and the leeming like exodus followed.
AOG would always the “latest and greatest teacings” from overseas and never used discernment or indeed the Sacred Sriptures or the New Covenant documents to verify them they just went ahead with outscreaming the demons and the slap on the forehead you fall down philosopy.while talking mumbo-jumbo in a fabolous litany of how wealthy one would be if one gave at least 10 percent of everything.
One rervealing thing that Ralph Read said to the church as he made his decision to leave was I believe was almost prophetic. which was along the lines of “Dont worship the preacher or the church, worship God” and that I belive is the crux of the rot with the likes of Houston. Williams Neville Jonston of Auckland Pringle, Barton, Jim Cairns who has teamed up with a dairy farmer to try to hold a Southland Community church toghether.
IMHO, all the above suffered from the cult of personality and almost belived the doctrine og pulpit infallibility and what they said or “prohesied” was true.
It is warming to hear from you after 30 years or so since I left Christchurch and I will always remember you and the “Deacon” you lived with on the hills, a grand lady with wise counsel.
If you wish to have urther contact please respond.
Shalom and walk in grace and peace brother.,
Gary MacDougall said:
Neville had an amazing church at Queen St and it could have gone from strength to strength but once again the devil tempted Neville to fall. When the Bartons left Frank took over our church for a couple of weeks and then Jeff Lloyd became the pastor and he held nightly meetings for a few months before he had an affar and then choofed off to Queenstown, selling insurance from what they said at the time.Pastor Brydges took over then and he was sound and stable. Mrs Walton , the deaconess, I stayed with , was the one who strongly advised the board to bring in David. When Jim Cairns gathered a bit of a following when he preached in our church, he also split and gutted out several members to start a new church. I stayed with AOG right up until the time I went to Aus for business reasons-I had an oppurtunity with some architects there to do landscape architecture for their clients.Every time the church split I was invited to leave but stayed put at AOG.My ministry there was handing out hymnals at the door. As you know I used to prophesy and speak in tongues from time to time in the meetings. hen Roy Hood started a church with Peter Driscoll and John Graham i was tempted to go because Wendy Thornton,who was attending our church, decided to go with them. I actually went out with Wendy for a brief time before I was a christian and then met hr again when I started attending church.I was keen on her again and had fellowship regularly but when she left lost touch until after she married someone else. Praise God ,thems the breaks!
When I went to Aus I went to Garden City Church where Tom Reid and the Hannams were fellowshipping. Ralph Read was an assistant pastor to pastor Kliminock.
I just thank God I didn’t leave the AOG with the Pringles and Bartons and praise God for strong christians like Mrs walton who took me under the wing and helped to keep me on the straight and narrow.
Is there a way we can conect other than using tis board as I am reluctant to post further details on what may be a monitored site.
Maybe I am paranoid but my dealings with some of the churchs admin/guards???? leave me a bit reluctant to reveal too much.
simon cox said:
I knew a few of the people you mention. But I never knew them to such a degree.
One person who used to stay at my place was Leigh Hoskins. Leah worked with me occasionally as I had a windowcleaning business in Christchurch. Leah stayed at my place in Purchas Street , St.Albans and we had a move of the Holy Spirit.
We saw many young people touched by God. We ended up having many people of all descriptions stay at three houses that were all next to each other and another that was just over Bealey Avenue. A number of others attended our prayer meetings in the houses from the Christchurch area.
We averaged about 5-6 nightly prayer meetings a week.
There was many testimonies of Gods miraculous power and lives changed. Leah played a pivotal role in these meetings and subsequent relationships. In having a large group of full on young believers meeting outside the walls of the ” formal church” was an exciting phenomena.
We had no official oversight although some of us took on that role. We were a full on group of about 30 and I have fond memories of those amazing times as the love of Christ gathered us together and we witnessed a real bond of that love between us. It lasted from about 1983 to 1985.
I then moved to Brisbane and have travelled a lot ,being involved in various businesses and being a witness for Christ, wherever He has sent me.
I often reflect on those times as I get older and reminise, having a special place in my heart for Leigh Hoskins ” the evangelist”.
The major problem there is the lack of oversight.
The Pastor in charge Barton and his Minister of All Portfolios Barbra, his wife controlled everything and were not under control or submission to the board and ran havoc just looking at the numbers coming through the doors.
It is good to have converts, but better to keep them and guide them in the right ways.
At least retribution came when the church kicked Barton and his accolyte and heir apparent Phil and Chris etc out and then proceeded to implode.
Prosperity churches and Pentecostal churches attract spiritual butterflies who cant commit to anything because there is nothing concrete to commit to only a demigogue who thumps the pulpit, brings out th eftpos/credit card machine and can say Amen in forty thousand tongues.
I am thankful that I left the hotbed of Christchurch pent upped costle churche and found my own spirituality,
JESSICA LOVISON said:
For much, much more archived history regarding this heretical Later Rain/Restorationist/Pentecostal/Charismatic/Word Faith/Prosperity Gospel/Et Al. also known as doctrine of demons, just go to the source: the biography of Paul Herbert Collins http://www.lifemessenger.org/html/Docs2/Collins_Bio_v2.pdf .
Written by Mark Hutchinson and extracted with permission from the Australasian Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, Alphacrucis College,
It sheds much needed light into who mentored Phil and Chris Pringle of Christian City Church. Read it out loud if you have the opportunity…you know – for emphasis. The last several pages are quite insightful.
My husband Sean and I thank God every day for delivering us and our children from the heretical personality cult of Jurgen and Leanne Matthesius at C3 San Diego. http://c3sandiego.com/meet-ps-jurgen-leanne/
We also thank God for websites (such as c3churchwatch.com) that expose wickedness in the church and rebuke it with ‘unparaphrased’ scripture.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
Ray Comfort said:
It was interesting to read all the above. Brought back so many memories. If anyone is interested, there’s a free online book that will makes sense of so much of the mess that resulted from what happened at AOG in Sydenham: http://www.freeWonderfulBook.com
Blessings, Ray Comfort
RE: Pringle ‘trip’ to india….just listened to a utube video by chris Pringle entitled ‘the sacred call’….Apart from many stories of pot smoking and Lsd trips [this is preaching??] She mentions Phil Pringle and India. Initially, she says, they were both going to India to ‘live under a guru’. Then goes on about the infamous trip to India..she couldn’t get her passport, so Phil went….and in her words.. He [phil] never made it to India because he was busted smoking pot with wayne at bondi, Australia. their ‘official’ stories are getting very, very messy.
Reading Gary’s latest posting says a lot and brings back the mind games played by the Pringles under the thumb of Babra Barton and her husband Denis.
Pringles and the other Acolyte Wayne Tindall controlledand dictated what went on the young people s group at AOG Sydenham and to this day there are many young folk with screwed heads and spirituality needless to say failed relationships and sexual identity problems because of their wrong teaching.
You never heard of them being audited or checked by the pastor or board so their is collective reponsibility I suppose.
People go on bout the tithing thing……. that is just an aberation. The real problem is the submission teaching that you must be submissive all the way up the chain. From ceel group leader, to worship leader right through to the Apostle or Rev Doctor ( if he bought the degree)
I was always a rebel in that cause as I submitted to what I read in the word not to some one “who got the call” and did not accept everything spouted from the pulpit as being gospel.
AOG NZ from the time Houston Snr out manouverd Ralph Read to take full control has been riddled with imorality and scandal and it flowed out of his Christian Life Bible college ith others like the Boddy’s following his line of teaching.
Well Frank Houston was outed and his world collapsed as did AOG in Christchurch.
What is the quote about a house built on sand ( or false teaching)
At leat one good thing happened at AOG, and that was the nice young man with round glasses that hande out the hymnals and greeted you at least he was genuine……..
Hi Yonathon – I’d just like to say thanks to you and Garry for sharing your histories and your hearts – great stuff! Although it isn’t pleasant to mention this kind of info at the time, I pray that it will benefit the readers, and help to clarify some things for them as it has for me.
I was given the “sanitised” version by the young men of the Hornsby CCC during early 1986 when I had a short interlude with them for several months on and off. I won’t go into the details of that story (shared elsewhere on the ‘watcher’ blogsites) but suffice it to say, that when I asked about the CCC movement and its history, I was told that:
“Phil Pringle had been doing a lot of evangelism around the Dee Why and Manly areas of Sydney, and that as a result of that evangelistic effort, a lot of young people had come in from the “surfie culture” and that due to the fact that they were sort of semi hippie in their nature, the church had to lay down some standards for them.”
No barefoot or half dressed people attending church, no bad language or drugs etc. Mind you, I didn’t have a problem with certain expectations of church leaders in principle, but I was just quietly hoping that those expectations would be shared graciously and not legalistically.
Of course, nothing was said about the church split in Sydenham NZ, nor the other split in the northern beaches district of Sydney either (not sure when that one took place) but the point is, not much was told to me at all, and maybe that was part of the plan. The dumber the sheep, the bigger the congregation will get?
I have learned the hard way to operate on the principle of “informed consent” – so unless a group fully informs me of their history, goals/aims, who the (real) leaders are, how money is handled, and what would be expected of me, should I consider joining, I simply won’t get involved.
I cannot give my ‘consent’ to participate, unless the group fully ‘informs’ me of all of the above, preferably in writing. That is how I learned to protect myself from these false prophet organisations, over the years. No informationn = no participation…
As for the tithing issue – you wouldn’t want to encourage God’s people to support a movement that is teaching false doctrine (heresy) and underpinning that doctrine with false prophecy and “miracle offering” type scams, would you?
Tithing supports the infrastructure of the movement, (buildings, activities, admin, vehicles etc,) and the lavish lifestyles of the leaders.This happens while there are some very poor people within the walls of the movement, who are making themselves peniless, while the leaders sit back and enjoy their “prosperity” at the expense of the sheep.
Tithing is an Old Testament principle but it’s not mandated for the NT church – giving and receiving is the Kingdom method – not legalistic tithing. See: http://www.tithingtruth.com for an excellent review of how tithing really worked in the OT.
Tithing is a rort.
A quick way to a Gulfstream, yacht and Roller plus Harley’s….
Prosperity doctrine is for the gullible,,, the church should have a LOTTO desk it is better odds than giving 10% plus and hoping to multiply it.
Theiving fro God…… is that not taking words out of his mouth and twisting them to make a buck???/
I just hsve to wonder at what made ne and so many other young folk listen to and follow Pringle and Co in Christchurch all those years ago.
was it acceptable to be a part of it…..
I was never fully suckered in as I have a hsbit of following the how why when where philosophy and I was consired a rebel as I enjoyed music. .I had a good collection of wine and tobacco so yeah I was a square peg.
They also did not approve of marriage outsideof the church so when I married Catholic….shock as Jimmy the Cairns tried to exorcise us enough we said.
I regret the smahing of thousands of irreplaceable vynil records some signed that I gave up as demanded thank God for Internet downloads…
I am still with my partner after 35 years and we are strong and I believe we are on the right track of giving thanks for who and what we are
Sarah, the tithing issues certainly is a rort, especially the way it is done in some churches. Its original purpose in the Old Testament was to support the temple and priesthood as well as the poor and those who couldn’t work. Old Testament tithing wasn’t about giving huge wads of cash to the priests, in order to “gain the blessing”.
It consisted mainly of produce or livestock:
“And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’s. It is holy to the LORD.” Lev 27:30
“And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the LORD.” Lev 27:32
“And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren.” Hebrews 7:5
“Then say to the Lord ‘I have removed from my house the Sacred Portion and have given it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow as you have commanded me.” Deut 26:13
That leaves us in no doubt about where tithes came from, and to whom they were given. Tithing had its basis in the Law of Moses, and was given for very specific reasons – it is not a basis for enacting money scams within the New Testament Church at all. Scams which appear to build large financial “jet set” empires called ‘ministries’…
The widow and the orphan are much neglected in many of today’s post modern “churches” as the “tithes” are brought into the store house – and promplty spent on fast cars, expensive clothes, large building projects and international travel. It looks to me like those kinds of expenses are the kind that would be spent by a large coporation for expansion, and not a humble church that was dependent on God for its blessing and direction.
The poor aren’t even in the race, and many of these so called churches have found ways of distancing them from the congregation (monthly “poor folks dinners” for example) or alternatively alienating them and getting rid of them altogether.
I sat in a church here in Brisbane for 9 months, where the rich and famous were seated down the front (seats reserved for the first 2 rows) but poor people were deliberately seated in the last 2 rows at the back. They obviously knew nothing of
James 2: 1 – 4:
“My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?”
Not all of them were ‘street people’ and some were even well dressed, but if your “church” practices that silly ‘church growth’ nonsense (which was cooked up by worldly marketing companies) then at some stage or another, you will be assessed as to your financial worth, and will be seated accordingly… If you’re not a viable “tithing unit” then you will probably be gotten rid of sooner or later…