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CHC, dogs, Kong Hee, presenc conference, Presence Conference 2012, Singapore, singaporean authorities
In this article, we would like to point out to readers that Kong Hee HAS in the past pitted God and the church against Singaporean authorities. This is wrong and not Christian.
We would like to remind listeners that Kong Hee is not Jesus even though he paraded that he was a ‘Jesus’ at the Presence Conference 2012. This is blasphemy. Kong Hee is not God. Kong Hee did not die on a cross crying “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me!” Kong Hee – like everyone else, is a sinner.
We will also point out that God also is not a liar as Kong Hee has made God out to be in the below segment we quoted him in.
We are slowly but assuredly demonstrating with evidence that Kong Hee has very little integrity to maintain – and that his congregation should not accept him as a genuine Christian minister but as an “impostor” going “from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” (2 Timothy 3:13).
He has unaccredited credentials but still advertises himself as Dr Kong Hee:
How Can Kong Hee Say “I Do Maintain My Integrity”? (Part 1)
He attacks Christianity, preaching his own made-up message and has a ministry that counters the biblical ministry of Christ and his church:
How Can Kong Hee Say “I Do Maintain My Integrity”? (Part 2)
We’ve already shown that Kong Hee not only attacks Christianity by twisting the scriptures and the integrity of God, he also lies to people AND emotionally manipulates people to empty their bank accounts:
The Pirate, The Presence & The Peddlers
Empty your Bank Account | Phil Pringle’s negligence in allowing Kong Hee to fleece at Presence 2012
When we reported that the Singaporean news informed that Kong Hee and church officials were arrested, Chris Rosebrough reviewed a bit of Kong Hee’s sermon at Phil Pringle’s Presence Conference here:
JUNE 26, 2012
ED YOUNG’S CALVINIST MELT DOWN
Program Segments
• Kong Hee Arrest
• Kim Kardashian Uses Spirituality to Improve Her Image
• Ed Young’s Calvinist Melt Down
• Two Fantastic Sermons
At the C3 Presence Conference, Kong Hee spoke to audiences all around Australia, all around the world and to many different denominations. In portraying himself as a type of innocent Jesus Christ, Kong Hee is painting those that are persecuting (investigating) him as brutal and unjust.
Here is part of the transcript of Kong Hee on the first official night of Presence Conference (our emphasis in bold):
“And [God the Father] said, ‘My son, I’m so sorry that you need to go through this alone. But you need to die and you need to go through this to be the Saviour of the world!’ And God the Father had broken and He wept as He turned His face, when His son took the sin of the whole world.
I was saying all this and I’m hearing myself behind the pulpit- and I froze. I could not utter another word. And I sobbed and I shook. Because those were my exact sentiments.
“Father, Father! Why?
My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me and thrown me to the dogs?” [Clicks fingers] And for the first time in eight months, I heard the voice. It is not the voice of a strict angry judge that only want me to perform and build a big church and nothing I do is ever good enough for him. No. It’s not a voice of angry judge. It’s not the voice of a slave driver. That just wants to take and take and wring me dry. But it was a voice of a tender, loving, broken-hearted Father.
For the first time in eight months, God – I heard Him crying. And He said, “My son, Kong, thank you! Thank you for going through this. I need you to go through this alone so that you and City Harvest Church can be the man and the ministry I call it to be. I’m so sorry. But you need to go through with this by yourself, to bring a change to your generation”. [Crowds applause]
Oh come on! Give the Lord a big hand tonight!
I hear God saying for the first time in eight months, “I love you! I love you! I love you!” Waves upon waves of God’s love- the love of the Father, just, saturated me. All I could say was, “Abba! Abba!! AABBAAH!!! Daddy! ABBA!!!”
And I knew, everything was going to be, alright. [Crowds applause]
Everything was going to be alright.” – Kong Hee, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FKVSXfjhB14, Presence Conference 2012, Night Service, 11/04/2012.
As Chris Rosebrough said, everything now is not all right for Kong Hee.
In regards to Kong Hee saying, “thrown to the dogs” – it could be an expression. However it is possible that Kong Hee was alluding to the ‘authorities’ crucifying him in the Messianic psalm since he is playing himself as a messiah-like figure:
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? . . . you lay me in the dust of death for dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet.” Psalm 22:1, 15-16
This coded language is language Phil Pringle also uses. Radio host Chris Rosebrough alerts listeners to this deceptive preaching technique Pringle used in his ‘March 17, 2012’ edition of ‘Fighting For the Faith’. While onlookers may not know what Kong Hee or Phil Pringle are saying, Christians would make the connection Kong Hee is talking about in regards to the popular Messianic psalm.
However, even if we are simply reading too much into this ‘expression’, this does not negate the fact Kong Hee (the victim) is still portraying himself as Christ being persecuted by unjust authorities. Christians know that the bible teaches that Jesus was tried unfairly, persecuted and crucified by corrupt leaders. So why is Kong Hee associating his experience to Christ’s experience of persecution?
The unbiblical associations Kong Hee draws between himself and the Singaporean authorities and Christ’s experience is shameful.
(Personal side note: after talking to individuals after the C3 Conference, many said they admired that Kong Hee was being persecuted for the cause of Christ. They seemed hostile to think likewise. They pointed out things he said we missed. After re-watching the footage, the entire talk Kong Hee gave was propaganda at best to pit Christianity against a ‘pagan country’.)
If anyone wants access to the footage, we will present this on C3 Church Watch. Dan Gorter has also critiqued other segments of this footage (read below), exposing Pringle’s negligence in warning people that Hee was being investigated for financial misconduct.
Empty your Bank Account | Phil Pringle’s negligence in allowing Kong Hee to fleece at Presence 2012
C3 Church Watch 
He meant his integrity, not the integrity of the gospel. It is a seriously telling sign about where his allegiances lie in this case.
“They seemed hostile to think likewise.”
The more cultic an organisation, the more inward-looking it is – and the more hostile are its adherents towards antipathetic outsiders. A cult member closely identifies with the cult itself; so anyone who attacks the cult is perceived to be personally attacking the member.
Straws in the wind.
You dun even understand the message or know Kong Hee. You think u are very smart but you are not. If you think your doctrine are right why not u pray to God and ask if all your reports are true. If you don’t dare then you are just being judgemental and blinded.
I can attest to why what he says is scriptural. Just go and listen to city harvest worship songs on youtube, where Kong Hee speaks in the middle of the song.
The comforting words, the inspiration, are all spiritual, real and probably touched thousands.
He makes a point to appear live at all services if he is preaching no matter how jet-lagged. Not appear as a video recording in the services. This is the real person in the flesh, who responds to the audience.
“I can attest to why what he says is scriptural.”
You clearly don’t have a clue regarding what is written in the Bible, or what any of it means.
“Just go and listen to city harvest worship songs […]”
Worship songs? Like “Kill Bill”? Is that a “worship song”?
“The comforting words, the inspiration, are all spiritual, real and probably touched thousands.”
Yep, and you could say that about Joel Osteen too, or Oprah Winfrey, or Phil Pringle. Many people probably said those things about Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. There were those who would have maintained that about Jim Jones, as well – and their bodies ended up littering a godforsaken spot in the Guyanese jungle. Perhaps you are unaware that Satan can appear as an angel of light.
“He makes a point to appear live at all services if he is preaching no matter how jet-lagged.”
Did Jesus ever get jet-lagged?
“This is the real person in the flesh […]”
Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, Kong Hee is one who trusts in and appeals to the flesh. Jesus Christ is real, Kong Hee is a fraud.
“[…] who responds to the audience.”
Jesus Christ said only what His Father said, and did only what His Father did; he told people what they needed to hear.
Kong Hee serves a different father, at whose direction he appeals to the worldly lusts of his congregation, all in accordance with his own overweening pride and fear of man. Unless he repents he will certainly be most severely judged.
Let me give you an explanation. What you said below, is totally one-sided and untrue.
“The unbiblical associations Kong Hee draws between himself and the Singaporean authorities and Christ’s experience is shameful.”
Kong Hee has identified with Christ’s suffering, he is able to draw parallels with Jesus’s experience with what he has to go through – not parading himself as or pretending to be Christ.
Hence he is able to invoke such emotions, because he has displayed an aspect of true vulnerability. Questions of the unknown and why. Christians draw strength from knowing that Jesus himself had experienced such trials before.
Please do not misinterpret an expression or use of a metaphor to express one’s experiences as shameful.
When Kong Hee says he maintains his integrity, it is spoken from his perspective truly there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. He does not attack christianity and definitely did not twist the scriptures.
He has been a blessing to many people just from his spoken words, which are drawn from scriptures.
“Let me give you an explanation.”
There is no explanation that you can give. Kong Hee is a heretic and a liar, and it appears from his pending court case that he may be many more unsavoury things besides those.
In particular, there is no “explanation” that will satisfy God, who rightly demands that those who purport to be ministers of the Gospel should handle both the Bible and themselves with the utmost integrity, and should be humble enough to admit their sins and repent of them (and to do so in the public arena, when necessary).
“What you said below, is totally one-sided and untrue.”
What was said is in fact quite true.
“Kong Hee […] is […] not parading himself […]”.
Kong Hee is a pompous and effete show pony, and parading himself is exactly what he does. He affects a false humility, but he can hide neither his self-indulgent streak nor his arrogance.
“Please do not misinterpret an expression or use of a metaphor to express one’s experiences as shameful.”
Please ask Kong Hee to stop deliberately misinterpreting the Scriptures out of greed and self-interest.
“When Kong Hee says he maintains his integrity, it is spoken from his perspective […]”.
That’s right: Kong Hee speaks from a man’s perspective, not God’s. Don’t you know what is written: “There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of that way is death”?
“[…] truly there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.”
You wouldn’t know, you don’t have the wit to be able to judge.
“He does not attack christianity [sic] […]”
Kong Hee has made CHC an object of scorn and derision, and, even worse, he has brought the very name of God into disrepute. That is no small matter, and except he earnestly repents, he will pay dearly for having done so.
“[…] and definitely did not twist the scriptures.”
Kong Hee wouldn’t be able to preach a single word from Scripture correctly. The man couldn’t lie straight in bed.
“He has been a blessing to many people […]”
The truth is that he has manipulated and deceived many well-meaning people.
“[…] just from his spoken words, which are drawn from scriptures.”
His words are vacuous utterances out of his own vain imaginings, and have nothing whatsoever to to with Scriptures.
I’m glad we got all that cleared up, Princess. Just one more question – I would have thought that there’s only room for *one* Princess at CHC. You’re not Sun Ho by any chance, are you?
You took a longer time to approve the last post which was written first BEFORE the shorter post on 24 feb.
Please stop taking one point of a sentence and attacking it, taking it completely out of context. Were you even present?
How did Kong Hee preach this sermon? He told the congregation earlier he fell into a brief period of depression after the incident. A pastor who is always optimistic unexpectedly fell into depression. (Brave admission).
What is the mental state of his mind at the point when these words appear, ‘Why have you forsaken me?’ In the most vulnerable state, he was trying to seek some form of clarity, if I may boldly use the word has God abandoned him?
So is he pretending or purporting to be Christ? NO, of course not.
Have you ever been depressed? Have you ever have your whole world crashed down on you, leaving you with nothing and you do not know the next step?
Have you ever had so much pain that only God can help you, and yet it does not appear he is doing anything? Depression eats into you slowly bit by bit. It is not a one time circumstance that ends.
I have been through it enough to know maybe not to the magnitude of a court case. Yes I am weak that is why I need God, the suffering where only God can heal. Doesn’t alot of people go through their struggles each day?
A metaphor is a figure of speech, on some point of comparison.
‘Kong Hee has identified with Christ’s suffering, he is able to draw parallels with Jesus’s experience with what he has to go through – not parading himself as or pretending to be Christ.
Hence he is able to invoke such emotions, because he has displayed an aspect of true vulnerability. Questions of the unknown and why. Christians draw strength from knowing that Jesus himself had experienced such trials before’.
And here is people like you writing things that can get you sued for libel had these been directed at a Singapore minister. I won’t waste time with you anymore, you can continue to remain in your deluded self.
“Please stop taking one point […] completely out of context.”
Yeah, it’s a real shocker when people do that; I can’t abide that sort of nonsense myself.
It’s a good job that Kong Hee never takes Scripture out of context when he’s manipulating the sheep to dig a little deeper at offering time, isn’t it?
“How did Kong Hee preach this sermon?”
Ooh, ooh! I know! He didn’t preach, and it wasn’t a sermon (that’s because he’s not a minister of the Gospel). I love those trick questions, Princess.
“He told the congregation earlier he fell into a brief period of depression after the incident.”
Well I can certainly understand that; the man is staring down the barrel of a long stint in Changi – that would be enough to get anyone down, don’t you think?
“What is the mental state of his mind at the point when these words appear, ‘Why have you forsaken me?’”
If he is guilty of the things of which he stands accused, he’s probably thinking that it was a mistake to stick his hand in the lolly jar, and he is wondering how he can get out of the nasty situation which he has brought upon himself. (Do you think his wife egged him on, Princess?)
“So is he pretending or purporting to be Christ? NO, of course not.”
So what would you say he’s pretending to be? Innocent? Worthy? A Christian?
“Have you ever have your whole world crashed down on you, leaving you with nothing and you do not know the next step?”
Have you ever been charged with misappropriating $23 million?
“[Kong Hee] displayed an aspect of true vulnerability.”
Actually he has displayed aspects of greed and stupidity.
“And here is [sic] people like you writing things that can get you sued for libel […]”
You mean like Kong Hee threatened Roland Poon with a lawsuit, forcing him to publicly retract his allegations of financial impropriety at CHC?
“I won’t waste time with you anymore [sic], you can continue to remain in your deluded self.”
No worries, Princess. I’ll remain in my deluded self, and you keep giving your allegiance and money to the big talking huckster with the feet of clay. Good luck with that.
Faith works through Love: Kong Hee’s message is centred on God’s love, presence.
‘It was the voice of a tender, loving, brokenhearted Father. I need you to go through this alone, so that you and City harvest church can be the man and the ministry I have called it to be. You need to go through this alone to bring a change to your generation’.
I hear God saying I love you. Waves upon waves of God’s love, the love of the Father, just saturated me.
On David.
He realised God is not a distant deity. God was His Father and he fell in love with the presense of God, God’s goodness and His mercy and David became addicted to the worship of His Father.
David knew his sheep by name. Fear not, I will never leave you nor forsake you. David had experienced the love of God. David had found Him to be his refuge and his hiding place.
Core message.
Though an enemy encamps around me, I will still trust in my God.
The bible has a beautiful scripture: Faith works through Love. What gave David powerful, lion-killing faith? What gave David such powerful mountain-moving faith?
Well, the revelation that God the Father loved him. Faith worked through love that gave him the faith to do the impossible. God wants to do great things through us. What seemed to be impossible in the natural, God wants us to rise up in our generation. That destiny is directly dependent on our own sense of God’s love for us – our own deep sense of being loved by Him.
When everything is stripped off my life, when I had the possibility of losing my church, when I lost everything I have built.. when everything is stripped away, all that is left is just me and Father.
When Father is for me, who can be against me? I shall be the head, above and not beneath.
This is the key tonight. We can go through anything. You can do anything. There is no trial, no difficulty too hard if we have a deep sense that God loves us. In praise or rejection, we can be used by God if we only know God is our Father and God loves us.
“Kong Hee’s message is centred on God’s love, presence. […]”
Kong Hee is a narcissist par excellence, and his message is firmly centred on himself.
“You need to go through this alone to bring a change to your generation.”
Actually, Kong Hee may need to go through this alone in Changi.
“I hear God saying I love you.”
Satan himself can appear as an angel of light.
“Though an enemy encamps around me, I will still trust in my God.”
Kong is own enemy, and he continues to trust in himself rather than renouncing his sinful ways.
“[…] when I lost everything I have built.”
I built? I? So Kong admits that he, and not God, built CHC. How very revealing.
Hello Princess,
If you can define what you mean by ‘love’, it would help us understand where you are coming from in this conversation. Can someone say they are being loving to their spouse if they are continually dishonest with them? Is there a scripture you know that can help us understand what you mean by ‘love’?
Thank you for thoughts.
What is Malicious or Untrue allegation?
In Singapore, Defamation is a criminal offence under section 499 of the Penal Code. This means that the police can take action and arrest the perpetrator of defamation if there is sufficient evidence of such transgression.
Defamatory words published over the internet would constitute libel, if the 3 elements described below are present.
Quote: ‘Kong Hee is a pompous and effete show pony, and parading himself is exactly what he does. He affects a false humility, but he can hide neither his self-indulgent streak nor his arrogance’.
Quote: ‘The truth is that he has manipulated and deceived many well-meaning people. His words are vacuous utterances out of his own vain imaginings, and have nothing whatsoever to to with Scriptures’.
(1) Firstly, the statement in question must be defamatory. It is defamatory if it lowers the victim in the estimation of right-thinking members of society, causes the victim to be shunned or avoided, or exposes the victim to hatred, contempt or ridicule.
The post would be defamatory because it harms your reputation, causing you to be exposed to contempt. In addition, a statement is defamatory if the inferential meaning alone defames.
A statement may be defamatory in two ways: (i) via the natural and ordinary meaning of the words used or as may be reasonably inferred from the words; and (ii) by way of true or legal innuendo. True innuendo arises from words which appear innocuous, but may be understood to be disparaging of the plaintiff.
Quote: ‘Kong Hee serves a different father, at whose direction he appeals to the worldly lusts of his congregation, all in accordance with his own overweening pride and fear of man. Unless he repents he will certainly be most severely judged’.
Quote:’Kong Hee has made CHC an object of scorn and derision, and, even worse, he has brought the very name of God into disrepute. That is no small matter, and except he earnestly repents, he will pay dearly for having done so’.
(2) Secondly, the statement in question must refer to the victim, referring to the victim by name would constitute reference. This means that if a blog post accuses a wrongdoing, and a reasonable person can relate the imputation of dishonesty to you, a member of that organisation, reference would be found. Careless words or inadequate research, is no defence to the tort of defamation.
Quote: ‘We are slowly but assuredly demonstrating with evidence that Kong Hee has very little integrity to maintain – and that his congregation should not accept him as a genuine Christian minister but as an “impostor” going “from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived”’
(3)Thirdly, the statement in question must be published, or communicated to a third party.
The defamatory statement had been communicated to third parties who would reasonably understand the statement to be defamatory of the plaintiff.
A tort is a breach of civil duty owed to a fellow person. Under the tort of defamation, written words can constitute libel, while spoken words can constitute slander, both of which can give the victim a right to commence a civil lawsuit against the wrongdoer.
If the statement is not defamatory but is still very damaging, you will still have grounds to sue the perpetrator, under the tort of malicious falsehood.
SECTION 6 MALICIOUS FALSEHOOD
The Cause of Action
21.6.1 A person is liable for malicious falsehood if he or she maliciously makes false representations in respect of another with a view to injure that person’s goodwill or economic reputation.
Aggravated damages may be awarded in appropriate cases. Aggravated damages, which are compensatory in nature, may be awarded in respect of the additional injury caused by the defendant’s conduct or bad motives. Punishment for defamation shall constitute an imprisonment of two (2) years.
Princess – if you are a member of CHC Singapore, perhaps you should check out how other members are feeling – there are many disillusioned. There are blogs around where we can read the very sad state of affairs. For instance one blogger states (and not truly understanding the system in that church I will let it read as written) –
“I found out many things recently and decided to leave City Harvest Church. My cgl asked me for the reason why I want to leave and so i ask her back what does Pst Steve Munsey, Dr Yonggi Cho and son, Pst Abraham Alex and Pst Kong Hee have in common.”
“She told me that they were all under attack of the devil and are persecuted for the gospel. I told her what I found on the internet as reported by the various country’s media that they were in trouble for running afoul of the law like crimminal breach of trust, falsify accounts and tax evasion. However my cgl said I was poisoned and say that the media just want to create news and destroy the man of God. Then she went on and said that the government want to destroy them and also not to listen to those people who left because they are used by the devil to slander the pastors. Also she mentioned Pastor Kong and Pastor Aries’ statements to the church and she believe it totally that they are innocent.”
“I see no point discussing further because she is not there to listen and I just stopped attending cell group and service. I hope the leaders can face the fact and stop blaming the government, media and those who left.”
Another –
“Every time I ask my CGL why a person has left church, she would tell me that person has “issues to deal with”, “bad attitude” or “not doing well”. It has always been the same standard answers over the years. Now that I myself have left CHC, I wonder what they would say about me. Perhaps the problem lies with the common denominator in all this, perhaps the problem is with the church?”
Representing the other side –
“CHC is where I call my spiritual home. Twice in my life, I vowed to God that I will not leave this church. God is faithful & is with CHC.
I have been sowing in every way into this spiritual home and God has prospered me. I received news last month that we will have our salary adjustment and the % is the 2nd highest in the company. This is on top of the annual increment coming up in Apr. Best thing is the salary adjustment will be back paid to us from aug/Sep 2012 till Mar 2013.
All these are possible because I have obeyed The Lord to dwell in this land, sow during time of ‘famine’ (to what some people think) & I continue to prosper till very prosperous for His glory.”
Am I the only one to see a problem with the comment above? So sad.
Another –
“Can CHC be a testimony that great rises and falls occur when things are built upon lies, such as:
1. Crossover being successful – Everything stopped after police and CAD investigations. 2. 33,000 attendance – Ponzi scam
3. Money used to build the church – Hell, God knows where the money went (because cash was sometimes used to cover tracks)! This sure feels like ponzi syndicate practices, but in the “House of God”?
4. Suntec as the fulfillment of God’s promises – The “promise” shrank from a stadium to a pitiful old shopping mall.
CHC had great deeds but:
1. They are done by selfless Christians who believed in the leadership, but were let down.
2. The leadership showed face to collect awards but hardly got their hands dirty.
In the end, if God permitted all this, then we need to ask basic questions:
1. Why now – and not earlier to contain the damage?
2. Why use him – Even when the leaders have wantonly use/ splash money for own gains/ vanity?
3. Why not stop – Using Kong Hee’s words “While Man looks for better methods, God looks for better Man!” Kong Hee has been discredited, move on to the next man!
We could possibly conclude that either:
1. There is no God
2. God has been sleeping on the job
3. God has no powers to change things
4. God condones such acts
If the Nazi leaders were found to be gulity of what their subordinates did in WWII, shouldn’t the same apply to the Almighty? To protect the integrity of His glory and name, the following must happen:
1. Take the leadership down from privileged status – To show God’s discipline
2. Take the leadership to task – To show God’s intolerance of evildoers
3. Look beyond CHC for the body of christ.
God bless and empower the legal incumbents!”
This is one seriously damaged church – obviously there are many hurting and trying to hang in there despite the apparent failures of leadership.
And Princess, you didn’t answer Churchwatcher’s question.
Grace Alone, be assured all your influences and information regurgitated from a confessions page come from dissenters who had left, represent prejudiced views thoroughly onesided. How easy to criticise after being influenced by not even your own; I can go read it myself.
In such a large church, people leave for all sorts of reasons, of course they conveniently leave out spiritual blessings they had also received, focusing on criticism. How much credit given to confession pages with some made up just to trigger a reaction? Of course, minors write them as well, for you to read.
For a brief moment I thought you are local but I guess not, your salutation of ‘Ps Hee’. Chinese give their first name as their surname (stifles small laugh). He isn’t English – he is referred to as Pastor Kong universally.
Oh my, Princess!
What sharp teeth you have!
(I can feel it now too: “Waves [sic] upon waves [sic] of God’s love” – yes, its’ just washing over me).
Not really, just God’s way of informing someone not to have a ‘froward mouth’.
And another thing, Princess: if Kong Hee is found guilty, will CHC print a public apology to Roland Poon in all the Singaporean newspapers? Will CHC refund $33,000 to the man who paid for Roland Poon’s earlier retraction, which was made under duress?
We know that he who lives by the sword will die by the sword, and it’s fittingly ironic and poetically just that CHC, who have such a longing to get litigious with their opponents, now find their founder and some of his top lieutenants in the judicial cross-hairs.
God is not mocked. Did you know that, Princess?
Intelligence is to the mind what the eye is to the body. It is called the analogy of proportionality.
An analogy is an analogy a process of reasoning; analogical reasoning was used to describe Jesus as unfairly persecuted. Perhaps Kong Hee identified himself with this persecution. It’s basis remains a hypothesis, a probable conclusion as merely the result of analogy and has not been verified. He uses analogies all the time.
You ought NOT TO PREJUDGE Kong Hee before the verdict has begun. He did say too that there are always two sides to things and he would explain himself in court one day.
As it is a serious case involving different parties, Kong Hee wouldn’t be making comments and I respect that. I hope you respect his stand as well.
(Your moderator does not dare approve my posts below whenever it includes defamation; Princess is no longer interested).
A reminder, under Section 499 of the Penal Code, Defamation is a criminal offence.
You can pretty much say whatever you like provided you take full responsibility for it cause Big Brother is watching.
Good thing Zorro doesn’t live in Singapore 🙂 And hey, don’t spit your gum on the sidewalk or you’ll get the death penalty.
I am not a member of CHC, and would prefer not to make justifications. I attended the sermons.
Nevertheless, for every one account of grievance, there is another who believes in the leadership and wants to step into the blessings of God and the church. It does not help if you would like to feel vindicated yet speak from a feelings point of view.
The fact remains Kong Hee has been a victim of defamation. I am simply stating it in my earlier post.
The law on economic torts and defamation has its origins in English common law; Australia law also follows the english law in determining whether material is defamatory.
It would be naivety to assume one is absolved of all liability just because one does not live in Singapore and can do and say whatever he likes. Singaporeans are discerning of baseless and nonsensical statements.
In reply to churchwatcher, the post on Mar 2, 1.52pm is an almost word for word iteration of what Kong Hee spoke in the sermon towards the end.
I do not wish to misquote a verse Kong Hee has in mind for faith works through love. [So you should read it in its entirety, otherwise one could have misunderstood Kong Hee and think he wants to be messiah.]
Thereafter, the comments and what I wrote is entirely from my perspective.
If you really need a verse of encouragement, Proverbs 8:17 “I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.”
Reputation is an issue of honour and should be protected, the protection of human rights in Singapore.
Someone carelessly derided, “Kong Hee is a heretic and a liar”. “He appeals to the worldly lusts of his congregation.. and fear of man.”
It was also written in Proverbs 8:13, “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate”.
Princess says “The fact remains Kong Hee has been a victim of defamation. I am simply stating it in my earlier post.”
So you are to be called as a witness? The “fact” you say? Interesting – I look forward to the role you have to play in the upcoming trial.
By the way – have you had a chance to listen to Ps Hee try to “fleece the flock” at Presence 2012?
Perhaps the moderators of this blog could repost here for her royal highness’s special viewing?
Hate to replay the Nazi card as it has already dealt its necessarily ugly hand in a comment above from a CHC member….
(“If the Nazi leaders were found to be gulity of what their subordinates did in WWII, shouldn’t the same apply to the Almighty?”),,,,
But believing in one’s leader doesn’t necessarily validate one’s leader as having a handle on Truth.
If he’s innocent, praise God, may he repent of his false teaching and learn from much from this experience.
If he’s guilty, praise God for taking over shepherding the flock at CHC and taking them out from under false teachers and fleecers of the body of Christ.
Grace Alone, “This is one seriously damaged church – obviously there are many hurting and trying to hang in there despite the apparent failures of leadership”.
Who are you to vilify City Harvest Church calling it a seriously damaged church? You condemned the entire body of 33,000 Singaporeans themselves when you yourself do not even know the head pastor’s salutation.
You defiled a place of worship, disturbing a religious assembly, uttering words of seditious tendency.
Who are you to insinuate with the intention of causing ‘incitement’ and ‘purpose’ in a community consisting of different races in CHC, by regurgitating information from a confessions page in Singapore?
Grace Alone, “You will undoubtedly find many derogatory remarks on either Kong Hee, the church, and Christianity at large”.
A seditious tendency is a tendency—
(1) to raise discontent or disaffection amongst the citizens of Singapore or the residents in Singapore;
(2) to promote feelings of ill-will and hostility between different races or classes of the population of Singapore.
Zorro,’Kong Hee has made CHC an object of scorn and derision’.
The government maintains a watchful eye on international influences, well equipped to move against any perceived threat.
– SEDITION ACT (CHAPTER 290)
Grace Alone, “Kong Hee preaches a gospel that is counter to the true gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.. most Christians ignore his teachings”. “You will undoubtedly find many derogatory remarks on either Kong Hee, the church, and Christianity at large”.
All the while trying to shroud yourself in a veil of self-righteousness. How Fake?
The failure to apologise, the sting of defamatory words, the context the words are mentioned, the professional standing of the defamed and the degree of aggravation are all well taken into consideration.
Princess – You have said you don’t even attend CHC, right?
Time to get of your throne and stop being such “a royal pain in the ass”.
The above comments representing both sides come from those who do.
By the way we have personally heard Kong Hee (we can’t honour him with the name “pastor”) fleecing the flock of another very vulnerable congregation more than once.
Princess – while you think you can bring a “charge of sedition” against discerning Christians in regards to Kong hee, we hold ourselves accountable to a higher court of Opinion.
May I remind you, as Christians, we are warned against blindly following false teachers, being told in 1Thess 5:21 “…to test everything; hold on to the good”.
We are also warned in 2 Peter 2:1-3 that there will be false teachers in our day just as there were false teachers in his day. We are seeing a common characteristic in men/false teachers such as Kong Hee and that characteristic?
The greed motivating everything they do.
“Savage wolves” they are called in Acts 20:29-31 attempting to destroy the faith of the sheep and draw them away from our Shepherd.
Praise God we have Paul’s warning to the church, teaching believers in his day and that same message for us today, to be on our guard against deceivers such as these.
I did say earlier I attend CHC sermons but I am not considered a member.
“The above comments representing both sides come from those who do”.
Oh really, let me show you what it truly means to represent the other side. A testimony from a City Harvest member.
Princess, if you flick through our archives, you will see Kong Hee preaches a gospel and a Jesus contrary to the Christian faith. He even makes stuff up about things Jesus or the bible never says. He arrogantly defines himself as a ‘Faith Teacher’ and in the past has tried to rebuke those behind his pulpit in defense that his Jesus was rich and that his Jesus died to make people rich. This is heretical and not founded on historical Christianity. He is corrupting the Christian church with his serious error.
If you would like to hear those sermons – they are available on youtube. If you can’t find them, we will try to find them for you, (if you consider yourself open enough).
Why I stay in City Harvest Church
I have shared my testimony with thousands of people at live events over the past 10 years: I had a successful 10-year career as a model in Asia. I was also the TV host for the 1988 Korean Olympics for Hong Kong’s ATV.
I became an entrepreneur at age 24, and I founded ONE.99shop when I was 29. I came to City Harvest Church in March 2000, at the peak of my business which was turning over $14 million a year.
It was a divine appointment: I had accepted an invitation from my ex-staff at ONE.99shop and that day changed my life forever.
The moment I entered City Harvest Church, I immediately sensed love and sincerity in the community, and the atmosphere was filled with a tangible feeling of freedom, love and peace.
I was not looking for religion. I had gone to church to oblige my staff member. As a business owner, I was definitely not naïve; I was very wary that the people in church might want something from me since I was the Nanz Chong who had started those stores they all loved.
You bet all my defensive mechanisms were on full alert!
But since the day that I instinctively made City Harvest my home church, I have never sensed an ounce of “bluff” in the place.
Twelve years later, I am still here. I have grown in Biblical principles, grown in character, become a person of purpose, been cleared of bankruptcy, bounced back from my setback and I am now actively serving my business cell group, as well as society – I am a Councillor in North East CDC.
On a weekly basis, I help many suicidal and depressed people to bravely walk through what I went through. If it was not for City Harvest Church, I would probably be drinking at the bar every night, and my only hope would be that I don’t get in trouble with the law.
People may have read about my success and failure in business, the growth of my family (I have three awesome kids), the launch of my books, my speaking at events and organisations such as the APEC Women Entrepreneur Summit, the Supreme Court, CPF Board, etc… but not many members of the public really know how my church leaders have walked me through the darkest moments of life.
Managing the loss of a high-profile multi-million dollar business is not easy, trust me. I have talked to numerous people and most are clueless and helpless themselves! (Which provides a great platform for me to help them).
Personally, when my business went into receivership, I was clueless too, but I was blessed with daily help that saved me what would have been thousands of dollars on psychiatric help.
Pastor Kong Hee said to me on the first days of my suffering: “What have you learned? Write it down!” I was expecting some TLC and gentle counselling, but his wisdom, which I now realise was directed by God, led to me write down the lessons I had learned from my failure.
As I penned it all down, the process became immensely therapeutic and I was healed. All my writings led to the publication of my first best-selling book ‘One Business 99 Lessons’ (2006). Thousands of people have told me that that book saved their mental health and transformed the way they run their businesses.
Pastor Kong’s weekly messages have been practical, uncompromising to the whole truth of the Gospel. They have taught me to think, to give and to sacrifice to others first.
I put all his teachings into practice and that’s how I bounced back and can do what I do today. Yes, I’ve heard consistent messages from the man for most of the past 636 weeks in CHC!
I know Pastor Kong and his wife Sun personally as friends, not from a distance. I have always seen them living their lives in private as they do on stage. Mine is not the only testimony – there are many more of testimonies online from others.
My cell group leader Chew Eng Han, one of the five in question, came to my ONE.99shop office every other day to offer practical advice on what steps to take next in my ailing business.
He gave his time, expertise and support by rallying to get all his contacts to buy from ONE.99shop, increasing the cash flow that we so needed then. In the midst of my business storms, Eng Han would come to my office every week with his guitar to worship God with me and my team, keeping us calm, uplifted and focused.
How often in today’s busy world would friends walk side-by-side with you day-by-day in the midst of your worst moments?
As a member of the church, I have naturally become an extension of City Harvest Church.
The Biblical command to “love your neighbour as yourselves” is real in CHC: I have participated in giving of finance and time to the works that have made a difference to the world, such as bringing aid to victims of the Haiti earthquake (2010), the Sichuan earthquake (2008), the Aceh tsunami (2004), among other disaster relief efforts.
I have personally gone, together with my church mates to help build schools in China for their poorest. I have become a broken-but-healed business woman, now purpose-driven, thanks to my family at City Harvest Church.
Newspapers have written headlines about me such as, “She’s No Failure”, “She’s All Smiles”, “Comeback Queen”, etc…
Indeed, I claimed all the credit in these headlines, but truly, without my friends Pastor Kong Hee and Chew Eng Han, there would be no Nanz Chong, no such headlines, no bouncing back and no capacity at all to contribute to others.
Only a “resurrected” person can help others. The dead cannot.
(Nanz Chong-Komo is the former founder of ONE.99shop, Overall Winner of Entrepreneur of the Year 2000, author, business coach and speaker. http://www.NanzChongKomo.com)
Nanz Chong-Komo
inSing.com – 6 July 2012 4:09 PM | Updated 7 July 2012 12:12 PM
http://news.insing.com/tabloid/nanz-chong-komo-why-i-stay-in-city-harvest-church/id-d5533f00
Princess – well that was a resounding tribute to Kong Hee, CHC, and Nanz Chong-Komo!
Read the comments below:
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
“(………) has the ability to break down the old patterns that prevent you from being your true self. Once you find that you are no longer dictated by old beliefs, you are on the road to creating joy, true happiness and success in all areas of your life.”
“I remember saying – why can’t I be one of those people? And I just felt like (………)was telling you that you can, and I really felt that. I felt that if those guys can do it, why the hell can’t I – and ten years later I am.”
“I’ve had a lot of teachers and mentors over the years, and believe me, there is no one better than (…………..)”
“He changed my life as he can change yours. It doesn’t matter what you are, who you are or what you have, (…………..) can change your life as he has changed mine… and that I promise.”
“My gut and my heart, everything is attracted to his philosophies and he’s so much a people person. He’s been there. He’s done that. He can speak from experience. He helped me believe in myself.”
“I can’t tell you how many times I turn to (…………..) and his words, his inspiration, and the difference that they have made for me has been incredible.”
“Ten years ago, I filed bankruptcy. My marriage was on the rocks and I was at my lowest point. But what I did from there changed my life forever. I took the (………..) I learned from (………….) and started asking myself better questions. I soon learned that I was only limited by my beliefs and that I had the power to change them.”
“I now have an income that eclipses £200,000, I have four wonderful children and am in the process of adopting a fifth, and I recently celebrated my 21st wedding anniversary. Thank you for helping me to become a better father, a more loving husband, a smarter business person—and most importantly, the best person I know I can be.”
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………
So Princess – sound familiar? Any of the above testimonials sound like the the one you provided?
Or does it read like exactly what it is – a Tony Robbins “infomercial”.
Just insert Anthony Robbins (or Kong Hee’s) name in the gaps provided.
You see, I don’t have a problem with the people who attend CHC, just a great sadness for them being led astray by a false teacher.
Yes there are caring, lovers of Christ caught up there, with a huge emotional investment, as well as their (misused) finances.
What rings loud and clear in your last post, my dear, is the absence of givng any glory to Christ and His finished work on the cross…….
You put a blank in the person’s name then expect me to do association, discard as nonsense. Let me tell you Nanz put herself right in the cross of fire. She is her own woman and a public speaker.
‘I have never sensed an ounce of “bluff” in the place’. Cross your hearts, Pastor Kong’s preaching are largely consistent with:
1. WORSHIP
To know God and to love Him.
2. DISCIPLESHIP
To have your character changed to be more like Jesus.
3. FELLOWSHIP
To build meaningful relationships with other Christians.
4. MINISTRY
To use your talents to serve others.
5. EVANGELISM
To share this good news with others who have yet to know Christ.
Princess, “Cross your hearts, Pastor Kong’s preaching are largely consistent with:
1. WORSHIP… DISCIPLESHIP… FELLOWSHIP… MINISTRY… EVANGELISM…”
We are asking you to objectively examine his teachings and EXAMINE the evidence of his teachings. So far, you are failing to do so.
When we compare what Kong Hee says in the name of God to the actual Word of God, it becomes clear that Kong Hee makes up a Christianity that suits his own agenda. The proof of this is his false Cultural Mandate teaching and his heretical teaching that his rich Jesus died to make us materially rich.
A false teacher will always use the bible to give the allusion they are godly teachers. It is your responsibility as a Christian before God to test what he says. Until you engage with his teaching on C3CW that what he says is true or false, your comments are only demonstrating you cannot defend Kong Hee on his false theological positions. Please go to the bible and make your case. We will listen to your criticism’s if you can prove he is a godly teacher.
“[Nanz] is her own woman […]”
So was Eve. We all know how that turned out, don’t we?
“[…] and a public speaker.”
Yeah, well Joseph Stalin was a public speaker. So was Mao Zedong. Abraham Lincoln make the odd speech, and Winston Churchill was famous for his oratory. The woman who runs the P&C at the local primary school has to occasionally address small gatherings, and the under 11’s soccer coach no doubt has to speak at end of season functions. I myself have spoken in a public context.
So what’s your point, exactly?
What was that article trying to prove that Kong Hee and CHC were about?
If she truly followed the “biblical principles” of Kong Hee, this article then only exposes Kong Hee of being a false teacher.
Moderator, this is so UNFAIR. We have Churchwatcher and myself writing so much and you have Watcher splashing irrelevant videos giving DISTRACTIONS. With nary an effort.
Please note they are not the same.
Princess – because of the abysmal neglect of Christ in your comment, I bring this to your attention, and for others, to hear of that same glorious Christ:
http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2013/03/the-man-of-heaven-part-1.html
Princess – is THIS the gospel? This is the career and style they were using to promote the gospel, correct?
Did they show this to the congregation during services?
Was the congregation ever asked if they approved of the release of this cheap music clip by their pastor’s wife with her sexually provocative antics?
Just curious. It is Sun Ho, Kong Hee’s wife, am I correct?
The DISTORTED REALITY field is so apparent in C3churchwatch, it does not matter what is true, considering the amount of darkness here.
Take one portion of pastor’s speech, twist the content’s meaning and attack, attack and attack it.
So is that Kong Hee’s wife or not, Princess?
“The DISTORTED REALITY field is so apparent in C3churchwatch, it does not matter what is true, considering the amount of darkness here.
Take one portion of pastor’s speech, twist the content’s meaning and attack, attack and attack it.”
Since you do not want to engage our stance on a proper theological level (which we requested) and are constantly degrading us to your level of immaturity and false commentary, please make sure the switch on your brain is flicked ‘on’. It may be hard for you to do but it will benefit you greatly in this dialogue. Can’t you see the ‘standard’ you are applying to us is the same ‘standard’ you don’t even apply to yourself?
We let Kong Hee speak. It was not just us but Chris Rosebrough from Fighting For the Faith that exposed Kong Hee using a biblical text to portray himself as a Messiah-like figure to the audience. Do you know how deceptive that is in itself? Tell us- did Kong Hee portray himself at Presence Conference 2012 as a Messiah-like figure?
The fact that you are more concerned about defending the ‘integrity’ of a man rather than being more concerned how the man attacks the integrity of God, reveals more to us about your Christian character. Where are your scriptures? Why are you hiding behind personal attack rather than engaging us with God’s Word?
or:
Which represents the gospel to a lost world?
HOW JUVENILE!
Churchwatcher and myself are writing so much and you have Watcher splashing irrelevant videos giving DISTRACTIONS. With nary an effort.
Please note they are not the same.
The deceiver is not going to approach you and say,”Hi, i am the deceiver”.
Why, because he is deceived.
You vilified City Harvest Church as, ‘This is one seriously damaged church’. Grace Alone says,”I will admit this: when I first saw the news, I celebrated”.
If an outsider inundates you using negative comments from people in your church, thereafter he denigrates your church aspersively, one would wonder what his motives are.
– Is it a tendency of contempt?
– Are you raising discontent or trying to excite disaffection,
– Promoting feelings of ill-will and hostility amongst Singaporeans?
Sedition. The State does take a serious view on seditious remarks and have thrown people into prison for incitement of discontent (Some cases seemed innocuous? Maybe).
In the same breath, and spirit used in professing his faith,
Grace Alone says, “I don’t think I have any right to condemn him. I have judged that he has allegedly done wrong..” “will undoubtedly find many derogatory remarks on either Kong Hee, the church..”
“CHC is a cult of personality”.
Who is the false teacher here? FAKE=HYPOCRISY
Your failure to apologise and the sting of defamatory words or seditious libel did not help to moralise on the need for respect of persons.
Princess – I’m not sure if you even read comments in context here:
1: Grace Alone attached comments from CHC members representing both sides
2: You need to separate comments made by others from the comments made by CHC attendees.
3: Is that Kong Hee’s wife? (By the way, it is.)
4: Are you aware that many pastors from other churches worldwide were in shock over those Youtube clips? Are you aware they were told by pastors (who still come to CHC to preach for Kong Hee) that Kong Hee & Sun Ho are “good people” so it doesn’t matter? Perhaps now is a good time to meditate on Romans 3:10 “….as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;”
5: Is CHC “a seriously damaged church” as Grace Alone said? Yes it is – for starters at least 10,000 people have already left. Where are they now? Hopefully attending churches that faithfully preach the gospel. And this doesn’t even come close to the ongoing emotional and spiritual damage caused by the pending case and its consequences for all involved.
6: It’s clear from your comment above with attached Nanz Chong-Komo’s testimony,
that she is an example of a gospel that is not God-centered. It’s a gospel that draws people away from God to focus on themselves.
Finally to add a passage from a devotional reading this morning.
“True servants of Christ will not win popularity contests with people who “gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear” (2 Tim 4:3). But even when they are unpopular, true servants of Christ are marked by unswerving loyalty to Christ. We can still hear the clear gospel message today because courageous men and women suffered greatly for their uncompromising defense of it in years past. They resisted immense pressure to renounce their faith in Christ, and they boldly declared, as Martin Luther did, “Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.”
“True servants of Christ are marked by unswerving loyalty to Christ” – not to Kong Hee.
Perhaps in God’s providence – whether it be from a jail cell or not, Kong Hee may have the opportunity to hear, receive, and preach the Gospel because finally he “can do no other”.
Grace Alone did not. If outsiders inundate you using negative comments from people in your church, meaning using YOUR OWN to attack you. Then move on to talk about his version of christianity.
I do not even see Zorro displaying such SELF-RIGHTEOUS behaviour!
10,000 people? You gotta be kidding! Where is your source? The halls are packed to the full every single week.
Displaying those videos show only how juvenile you are, since it is done with nary an effort. I backed up seditiousness in a factual way.
– Is it a tendency of contempt?
– Are you raising discontent or trying to excite disaffection,
– Promoting feelings of ill-will and hostility amongst Singaporeans?
You can look up the convicted cases you would know why NCCS issued the statement, they are not stupid.
Can you even get 30 people to listen to you not to mention more than 30,000? Singapore has to be the most pragmatic country in the world, you think more than 30K people can get fooled by one man!
I’m not obliged to but I’ll put up a summarized version of early February’s sermon since you keep requesting for Pastor Kong. Its value would have been lost on you if you just want to blow it with a tit for tat response. I won’t bother with reply.
Princess – don’t bother posting Kong Hee’s sermons. I’ve already seen him in action many times over the years at another church. And consider, Princess, the warnings given of such men, by the Lord Himself.
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15-20).
Attendance at CHC HAS been inflated and noted by many sources, but the discussion isn’t, as I’ve said before, about the unfortunate /misled congregation.
The discussion is focused on the man Kong Hee driven, at heart, by greed. A man influenced by his self-proclaimed mentors, Phil pringle and David Yonggi Cho.
Continue to dismiss the Sun Ho’s music clips but remember, they sadly reflect back on the congregation of CHC – but she obviously didn’t think or care about that?
Testimony of a well-known ex-CHC cell group leader:
http://www.tremeritus.com/2012/07/12/ex-chc-cell-group-leader-quits-chc-and-tells-all/
As an outsider, you should be mindful that you do NOT impose your values on us.
Your position has absolutely no value.
You condemned the entire body of 33,000 Singaporeans in CHC.
You can get arrested and charged for insulting us, speaking without a permit, sedition etc., then sued, jailed, and then we’ll talk about how good you are compared to Singapore.
Well Princess – you should be mindful that your approving and letting Sun Ho impose HER values on the body of Christ brings a charge against you.
So I guess that means 30,0000? CHC attendees have you to thank for that.
As I said before – how old are you?
“As an outsider, you should be mindful that you do NOT impose your values on us.”
As an insider, you should be mindful that you don’t impose your values on God.
“Your position has absolutely no value.”
As I’ve already pointed out, you wouldn’t have the wit to know – you wouldn’t be able to spot value if it bit you.
“You condemned the entire body of 33,000 Singaporeans in CHC.”
Firstly, there are *not* 33,000 Singaporeans in CHC. Secondly, if those who *are* there are the slightest bit like you, they fully deserve to cop an earful.
“You can get arrested and charged for insulting us, speaking without a permit, sedition etc., then sued, jailed, and then we’ll talk about how good you are compared to Singapore.”
And you are a complete and utter fruit loop. If those at CHC are as gullible as you, it’s no wonder that Kong Hee has had little trouble relieving them of their money.
Do you have a permit to comment on this blog, Princess?
Stu said:April 30, 2012 at 2:06 am
as a follower of Christ, it deeply saddens me to see such a huge effort made by professing Christians to persecute other Christians. This website defines itself not by what it stands for, but only what it opposes. It professes a preference for a “grace message”, but has not one shred of grace in its pages. People are hardly drawn into the Kingdom by tawdry displays of in-fighting and criticism like this…
“Stu said […]”
Which just goes to show that Stu is as spiritually dull as you are, Princess.
Should we assume that you have been reduced to quoting other people’s posts because you’ve run out of ideas? Your stunning lack of imagination marks you as a true apologist for Kong Hee – you are quite simply unable to think for yourself, and you need to be spoon-fed by your heretical hero.
As I’ve already pointed out, you wouldn’t have the wit. HA, you have NEVER pointed it out to me before, you are so numb to using this phrase that you forgot who.
Zorro displays the actions of a coward who goes against you when he thinks he can win, but does nothing when he is not so sure. Just like the school yard bullies, he will threaten anyone in the school yard but become pussycat outside the territory.
To Princess,
Have you listened to ANYTHING that has been said? Do you have the ability to hear and assess for yourself what is right and wrong? Or are you too busy demonstrating an amazing lack of Christian maturity by defending someone that you think you know?
Something to think about:
“About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing… you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.” Hebrews 5:11-14
Please compare what Kong Hee says in the name of God to the Word of God. It is really that simple. If you are a Christian (a disciple of your Lord Jesus Christ), it is your Christian responsibility to be a faithful student and test the teachers. When you are a student, you are required to use your reason to think and not your emotions. Do so by comparing what God says to what Kong Hee says. Use bible.cc to help you with your studies. Read scriptures that Kong Hee says in context.
This should help you.
Princess – it’s the Lord’s Day, take some time to hear from someone who honours God’s Word
Princess says…..
“Moderator, this is so UNFAIR. We have Churchwatcher and myself writing so much and you have Watcher splashing irrelevant videos giving DISTRACTIONS. With nary an effort. Please note they are not the same.”
Irrelevant videos giving distractions? The videos are distractions? A beautiful hymn by Kristn Getty Is a distraction?
The teaching on the Holy Spirit presented by John Macarthur is a distraction?
The only only distraction (from the gospel) is Sun Ho sexually exploiting herself on a music clip.
Princess, how old are you?
Pastor Kong’s style of preaching is to stir you into applying those principles in real life; get you doing not give theology.
Our identity must be greater than our job greater than our problems.
We are a spirit. Have a soul.
God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
-2 Cor 5:21
We are brand new creatures.
To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
-Col 1:27.
#1 Find yourself in the Word of God
See God’s vision. Speak God’s word.
Connected to Christ.
Only when we locate our position can we find our direction.
In Christ the goodness of God is.
#2 Identify what Christ has done for you.
There is a real radical change in you when you believe. Total transformation.
Sit in a position in Christ. Be still and know that He is God. Rest in a position in Christ. Position of authority in Christ.
LET GOD FIGHT THE BATTLE FOR YOU.
#3 Confess those in Christ promises in Christ.
What God has done for us in Christ.
Who we are to His in Christ
What God can do through us in Christ.
Confess publicly. Spiritual faith n courage will come.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
-2 Cor 5:17.
We are absolutely redeemed. God has no past remembrance of past sins.
I may be struggling but I’m going to speak up. Circumstances can no longer hold me hostage.
The grip of habit, addiction will loosen its hold.
Become more God conscious.
Asking your requests boldly.
17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
-1 Cor 6:17,19
Your body is the temple of God.
Boldly confess. Speak the word of God until mountain is removed.
Wisdom and revelation.
Repetition of the Word
Yieldness of the Holy Spirit. He reveals truth.
Confession of the mouth. Acknowledgement of every good thing. Believe and acknowledge.
Pastor Kong’s style of preaching is to stir you into applying those principles in real life; get you doing not give theology.
So… In other words he is NOT a pastor. A pastor FEEDS the sheep God’s Word. That is, a pastor FEEDS people THEOLOGY. It seems clear by your own words, Kong Hee drives the whip and gets people to do, do, do by following “principles”. Let’s look at the ‘principles’ you have so nicely provided us with.
So what is Kong Hee telling you to practice by following HIS principles?
“Only when we locate our position can we find our direction… Sit in a position in Christ. Be still and know that He is God. Rest in a position in Christ… Position of authority in Christ.”
What is this? Yoga? This exact practise is WHERE in scripture?
“Confess those in Christ promises in Christ. What God has done for us in Christ.
Who we are to His in Christ. What God can do through us in Christ. Confess publicly.”
Can I raise a wand like Harry Potter and say “Expelliarmus”?
“Spiritual faith n courage will come.”
So if “spiritual faith” will come to you when you ‘position yourself’, what was it that you were encouraged to operate under prior?
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! -2 Cor 5:17.”
So it really is an ‘abracadabra’ disguised in Christianese language? Is this “new creation” coming because I’ve aligned myself to the cosmos or to the planets?
“The grip of habit, addiction will loosen its hold. Become more God conscious.”
And you do that how? Scripture please? How do I become “God conscious”?
“Boldly confess. Speak the word of God until mountain is removed. Wisdom and revelation. Repetition of the Word… Confession of the mouth. Acknowledgement of every good thing. Believe and acknowledge.”
So in other words, Kong Hee wants you to babble repetitively, things that pagans do. In other words, he teaches things that oppose Jesus’ teachings in how we are to pray?
Jesus: “And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.” Matt 6:7
The way that Kong Hee is telling us to commune with God directly opposes the way that Jesus Christ tells us to commune with God. If they are acccurate notes on what Kong Hee teaches, then that teaching is wicked. The way Kong Hee teaches how we are to operate within the framework of the Christian faith, is pagan. That is more in line with New Age pantheism and occultism. The Christian is to confess Christ and Christ alone- not material, worldly blessings and life abundance. Christ is the object of our faith. Our heart is never to be the object of our faith because our heart is wicked, sinful and easily deceived. Please repent Princess of these false teachings.
It is so clear who the false teacher is here – YOU!
Take one portion of pastor’s speech, twist the content’s meaning and attack, attack and attack it.
Stu said:April 30, 2012 at 2:06 am
as a follower of Christ, it deeply saddens me to see such a huge effort made by professing Christians to persecute other Christians. This website defines itself not by what it stands for, but only what it opposes. It professes a preference for a “grace message”, but has not one shred of grace in its pages. People are hardly drawn into the Kingdom by tawdry displays of in-fighting and criticism like this…
“It is so clear who the false teacher is here – YOU!”
Nice – immaturity right there with no evidence to back up your claim. Your original posts although accusatory were informative. And now it is apparent – the very accusations you are applying to us is the very thing you are breaking yourself.
Where is your evidence that we are false teachers? You say we twisted his words. Prove it. Have you taken this up with Chris Rosebrough too?
Overall, you have not listened and have behaved like a spoilt, bratty princess. You came here to pick a fight and accuse us falsely without reasonable evidence. You are unfounded in your accusations and come across as emotionally unstable and arrogant.
All you are doing is bumping up the popularity of this article on google, allowing hundreds of people to read about your anti-intellectual campaign. By defending Kong Hee – you have only proved that people like yourself who prostrate themselves under his teachings come across mentally disabled. Now as a defender of Kong Hee, you have provided further evidence that Kong is a false teacher.
We gave you information continually in this discussion that was already available. We encouraged YOU to use your intellect, engage us with the scriptures and define your definitions and positions so we can understand you. If you can honestly still call us a false teacher when you compare our behaviour to yours, than that is just lunacy.
For your sake, please leave and examine the articles before commenting again.
Is Sun Ho’s body a ‘temple of God’ in that pornographic video? which god is being displayed there?
churchwatcher,
All you are doing is bumping up the popularity of this article on google, allowing hundreds of people to read about your anti-intellectual campaign. By defending Kong Hee – you have only proved that people like yourself who prostrate themselves under his teachings come across mentally disabled. Now as a defender of Kong Hee, you have provided further evidence that Kong is a false teacher.
We gave you information continually in this discussion that was already available. We encouraged YOU to use your intellect, engage us with the scriptures and define your definitions and positions so we can understand you. If you can honestly still call us a false teacher when you compare our behaviour to yours, than that is just lunacy.
For your sake, please leave and examine the articles before commenting again.
Wow! That’s a very strong judgment of the commentary provided by Princess. How did you come to the conclusion that Princess is ‘mentally disabled’? Can you explain how you assess this?
I guess the level of your judgment, as site director, makes you right about everything then, including doctrinal interpretation and theological assessment!
Have you ejected Princes on this basis? She’s gone quiet.
The term analogy has a very specific meaning in mathematics and logic. Princess is intelligent to use it as an inference and explain it as a linguistic expression. Analogy is understood as surface resemblance to reflect a similarity; that explains the attributes of Jesus.
She presented her case of defamatory comments and seditious remarks in a similar analytical vein and high level of perception.
All you have made is a furious counterattack on her intellectual reasoning to upset her position. Say what you will but it is plainly obvious for all to see.
She likely left in realisation of the remark, “This website defines itself not by what it stands for, but only what it opposes. It professes a preference for a “grace message”, but has not one shred of grace in its pages”.
“Princess is intelligent […]”
Oh yeah, she’s top-drawer material, of that there’s no doubt. I wouldn’t be surprised if she belongs to Mensa.
“She presented her case of defamatory comments and seditious remarks in a similar analytical vein and high level of perception.”
Exactly what I was thinking, Ken! Her cognitive skills are sublime, her reasoning beyond all reproach.
“Say what you will […]”
You can rest assured that I’ll be doing that.
Now that Princess’ intellectual bona fides have been firmly established, we know where the smart money is, don’t we Ken? It’s in Kong Hee’s pocket.
What is stated matters:
CW: “Come across mentally disabled.”
Ethel: “How did you come to the conclusion that Princess is ‘mentally disabled’?”
We didn’t. Read our comment again ‘Richard Abanes’. Maybe she has gone quiet because she took our advice, researching the scriptures and all the resources on the web what Kong Hee teaches for herself. That is our prayer anyways.
So you only think she comes across as emotionally usable, mentally disabled, anti-intellectual and a lunatic.
How is that different to saying someone is actually emotionally usable, mentally disabled, anti-intellectual and a lunatic?
You don’t mean it, or you do?
You also suggest Princess is showing immaturity with her level of spoilt bratty commentary.
For the sake of uniformity, balanced against your assessment of what she says, how would you rate the comparable contributions of Zorro, whom you have allowed to continue in a similar vein without rebuke?
“[…] how would you rate the comparable contributions of Zorro […]”
Now, now, Evil Dumbo. Who would have suspected that an elephant could be so disingenuous? You know very well that my contributions are rated very highly on a consistent basis by all who could be considered as being amongst the cognoscenti (sadly, it seems that you yourself are excluded on that basis).
We all know that my occasionally caustic commentary causes you conniptions; that even as you rage against the perceived insolence, you are nonetheless insanely jealous of my powers of expression and thoroughly flummoxed as to how someone who is not an awesome super-anointed C3 pastor could possibly possess such powers of expression. And of course, the fact that you have never been able to contradict my theology, refute my reasoning, or answer my questions drives you to distraction as well, adding fuel to a fire that you just cannot put out, now matter how hard you try.
Anyway, back to the matter at hand: anyone with half a clue can see that “Princess” is a sandwich or two short of a picnic. It may well be immaturity, or she may actually have a screw loose (or it may be a combination of the two factors, as in your case). Even if one were to discount the thoroughly illogical and scatterbrained dog’s breakfasts that “Princess” has offered up as comments, the fact that she is an ardent defender of a greedy Gospel-mangling prosperity pimp, is, ipso facto, proof enough that her neurons simply aren’t synapsing very well.
It’s interesting to note that Kong has been mentored by Phil Pringle, who has, out of the kindness of his ever-so-soft heart, been good enough to fly up to Singapore on a regular basis to help out as an “advisory pastor” (it’s a tough life being a celebrity preacher, isn’t it?) Now that Kong is staring down the barrel of a long stint in Changi, it makes one wonder exactly how effective Phil’s “discipling” of him has really been, doesn’t it? (I mean, how many of those whom Paul oversaw ended up on serious criminal charges?). If Kong does get sent down, will Phil go to see him in gaol? Will CHC pay for those trips? (It’s London to a brick that “Princess” would be the first to “give sacrificially” for such a worthy cause, don’t you think?)
You have a theology? Gosh! Who would have known?
I don’t think there’s any danger whatsoever of many people, myself included, actually being covetous of your great abilities, Zorro, because they are so vainly displayed and ineptly portrayed.
In their distress over your inability to show mercy they may pity you, yes, Attempt to help you get over yourself. Yes. Wonder why you have such a need to pounce on people you see in a lesser light to yourself. Yes.
I’ve come to the conclusion that you are like the wicked Queen in the Snow White fable who constantly asks the mirror who is fairest of them all.
Of course, being a reflection of your own ego, the mirror always condescendingly points to you as fairest, strongest, greatest and, inevitably, proudest, which, in scales of envy, requires that you, the ultimately self-centred and self-admiring, would naturally conclude that you are also, of all men, the most envied, when, in fact, you are the most pitied.
Over time, I have discussed issues with many people who claim high standards of theology, possess inestimable expertise in their learned understanding of historical Biblical facts, and have all the terminology, but fail to display any Christian character or virtue, which, you see, is the main issue any of us should be concerned with, because, as Paul says, if you have all knowledge and know all things, yet have no love, you are, at best, a clanging gong.
So, no, I have to burst your bubble and let you down on that one. I do not envy you one bit. My campaign is entirely aimed at helping you, and the various moderators of blogs you invade, to demonstrate a single ounce of Christian love towards people who comment on the various sites you trample with your arrogance.
You know theology. That’s great. So does Satan. Now, to prove the depth of your theology, show me your Christlikeness.
I’m sure that all the readers are captivated, Ethel, by your eloquent and very long-winded reply regarding your perceptions of my supposed serious character flaws. (I’m also certain that they are most relieved to know that you aren’t totally consumed by some pathetically petty personal preoccupation that reveals itself as a mania bordering on obsessive-compulsive disorder, and by the consequent inference that you are possibly not actually related to “Princess” at all.)
However, I would point out that this thread is not about me; it’s about Kong Hee. Please keep this in mind, and do try to stay on-topic – I’d venture a guess that you yourself are, after all, the sort of perennial pedant who finds those who stray from the subject at hand most vexatious (tell me, am I wrong?)
I note that you have, as is your wont, studiously avoided attempting to answer any of my questions (I imagine that they have gone into the “too hard” basket, along with all the others), and I find it ironic in the extreme that you conclude your email with “[….] show me your Christlikeness.” Tell me this, Ethel: Kong Hee has been charged with misappropriating $23 million – do you think *he* is “Christlike”? What wise counsel are you planning to give him?
No, No, Zorro. You are definitely the subject here. You have made yourself the subject.
First, you made yourself the subject because there is no doubting the pattern of abuse which obsessively emanates from your keyboard every time a person, male or female, says something in any way positive about a featured post on this site, and, indeed on other blogs of similar critical bent that you frequent.
It is so remarkably abusive and insensitive [considering you claim to know all theology and have set yourself up as a judge of Christians] that I was drawn to make a point of asking what it is you hope to achieve by your rudeness, since most people are reticent to communicate with such a confrontational approach, and how it is that moderators here seem to allow it to continue without saying something about it, even though I have invited them to make some kind of statement.
Do you, and perhaps they, continue in this vein to put people off commenting here, or to intimidate people into submission?
Second, you made yourself the subject because you drew attention to your own self-exalting extensive abilities and skills which you have, on numerous occasions, claimed were the envy of myself and others who point out your tendency to utilise stand-over commentary against those who disagree with your views.
For instance, you made the self-agrandising claim that, even as you rage against the perceived insolence, you are nonetheless insanely jealous of my powers of expression and thoroughly flummoxed as to how someone who is not an awesome super-anointed C3 pastor could possibly possess such powers of expression, to which I responded that I covent nothing of who you are or represent, and that your own high opinion of yourself had possibly led to erroneously believe that others must, therefore, envy you, when in fact they pity your inability to either demonstrate any kind of humility, or to find any kind of mercy in your dealings with people you consider beneath your perceived level of intelligence or wit.
So can you answer a question for me, Zorro? Can you tell me why it is that you write in an imitation late 19th century English style? Are you an avid reader of Dickens, perhaps? Or stuck in a time-warp? Or merely trying to impress someone, anyone?
Ethel,
I must apologise; I didn’t mean to talk over your head.
Here are a few questions for you in language that I hope you’ll be able to understand:
How “Christlike” do you think Kong Hee is?
How edifying are the antics of his wife in her music clips?
If you were a man, would you let your wife travel overseas without you and carry on like that?
Do you think that Sun Ho has set a good example of how a Godly woman should conduct herself?
Do you think that the wife of an alleged pastor needs to be housed in a Hollywood mansion costing $20,000 per month as part of an “outreach”?
Do you think that the “cross-over project” has provided value for money?
Do you think that it has been a good witness to the world?
Do you think that it has been glorifying to God?
Do you think that Jesus Christ would give his approval?
Would you commend your own pastor if he set up an “outreach” along the same lines?
Would you give money to your own church if you knew that it would be spent on similar music clips starring your pastor’s wife? (Would your own pastor do such a thing?)
And finally, for bonus points, can you say “I believe Kong Hee has integrity” and still keep a straight face?
Well, I’ll have to leave you to your lofty perch, squawking like a Galah, breaking gum tree branches with your crooked beak, flapping in the the breeze of your own inexhaustible hot air!
I’ve said all I want on your wanton behaviour, but I dare say you’ll continue in this vein vainly ad nausium honing your obnoxious recitals until they become the echoes of the ‘Pretty Polly’ of the blogisphere.
On Hong’s incursion into the pop world I have had a view for some time which I have shared with others, but I would always avoid fuelling your desperate cause with it because you would never know how to handle information of a sensitive nature without summoning the other parrots in your pandemonium to rail on across the wires.
Sometimes I think you must be a sad Norwegian Blue pining for the fiords…
“Well, I’ll have to leave you to your lofty perch, squawking like a Galah […]”
Of course you will, Ethel, of course you will.
What other course of action could possibly be open to you, given that you just can’t stand the heat? How else can you avoid the continual embarrassment of being confronted with searching questions that you just cannot answer?
We know that God is truth. We can also plainly see that for you, the truth really, really hurts. Taken together, these two simple facts speak volumes about your actual spiritual state.
What a surprise. Ethel refuses to answer on the basis his brain short circuits when presented with reasonable questions. When presented with fact after fact of these false teachers behaviour, what goes on in your soul?
Your inability to practically examine the facts is astounding. You see what you want to see. Therefore you see it is your right to come on here and pick a fight in your blindness. Zorro will at least engage with people’s intelligence and engage them on the topic.You however are in a league of your own.
You appear to fulfill the criteria of someone who has “exchanged the truth about God for a lie”. And turned men like Phil Pringle and Kong Hee into worthless idols. The result being you have, “exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being”, and this is to be pitied.
Look at your priority. What are you so worked up about? What are you trying to defend? What is worth defending? Your own pride?
You’ve made it clear that you’re not coming on here to defend the Christian faith. You’re continually coming on here to agitate people. You could say that Zorro may be similar – which we also have warned him about his approach. But at least Zorro has taken our rebuke and changed his approach on occasions.
But you show no heart for the truth. Otherwise you would actually answer people’s questions rather than snake through discussions and pull people apart with your child-like bickering.
We do not know what you are trying to achieve with your comments. So we will ask you this: Don’t comment on here again.
And before you blog about us being ‘unfair’, we will tell you why we don’t want you here. It is because you fight and care not for honest discussion on the things written. You simply hate what we do and have not explained reasonably you’re vehemency towards us. It’s simply abhorrent to witness you twist our words and slander the work we do. It is incredibly ugly to watch. You should be more concerned about the bitterness you carry.
Once again – this behaviour of yours is to be pitied. Stop bringing shame to the name of Jesus Christ and hold to the truth of the scriptures and NOT the traditions of false teachers.
Thanks for that, c3churchwatcher. Would you like a response?
My reply to Zorro was to end the conversation which had got out of hand with a humorous closing. A conversation to which he had severally contributed, yet without remark from you, until I bowed out allowing Zorro the obvious last word.
But this is different. I had not ended any conversation with you.
Zorro will never relent on his bullying or people like Princess and Stacey on your other site, and, as I said, I am not going to dignify his bigotry or fuel his ego with further comments. It was merely bombastic sledging between myself and Zorro to take attention away from his abusive behaviour with Princess, which it seems, you support and have decided to contribute towards. I drew your attention from her long enough to distract you from further rude attacks on her character.
But what would you like to know? I don’t think I’ve actually commented on the situation with Kong, or Phil Pringle, or the trial, save to say it is a court case and should be allowed to complete its course without making judgment either way.
My view is that a person is to be considered innocent until proven guilty. You seem to have judged him guilty on all counts already.
Now you ban me for what? Intervening in Zorro’s aggressive behaviour towards Princess and Stacey where you allowed it to continue even after I suggested you intervene?
I have long held the view that Kong’s excursion into the pop world was ill-conceived. I was saying this when the enterprise was still in its embryonic stages. I was disturbed by Sun’s ambition long before she embarked on her new career. I saw it in some of the worship training she did some ten years ago. I thought it would probably end in tears. It was, at best, naive. I do not like the recent videos. I think they are an affront to Christianity. Some of Kong’s teaching I have heard is not accurate to scripture. Beyond this I will not go.
I will not make a judgment on the court case. Nor should I. Neither you nor I know the facts. We are not lawyers in the case. It should be allowed to take its course. There are also potential political motives involved. This is not Australian democracy.
Your support of Zorro is impressive in teamwork kind of way, but it is not a good look, especially banning me for attempting to point out his lack of Christlike behaviour, which you appear to condone.
I must admit I understand why “Ethel refuses to answer on the basis his brain short circuits when presented with reasonable questions.”
My brain short-circuits when “Ethel” continues to demonstrate loyalty to men who clearly misuse the bible to advance their “kingdoms”.
I, for one, am willing to concede that “Ethel’ clearly knows his bible, and loves his Lord.
You see, I’m not one to throw down continual insults against commenters here (asking how old they are is not an insult, just a question). All I would like to see are some biblical answers to some very serious questions about certain ministries.
Unquestioning loyalty really bothers me, especially in a culture that says “it’s all good” and “we must obey our pastor even if he’s wrong”, these being remarks from people who have invested heavily in these ministries and I’m not talking about money.
Been there, done that, and it’s simply not worth compromising God’s word with misplaced loyalty to men, charming and seemingly successful, with “numbers” seen as a measure of success.
And there’s nothing worse than realising that YOU might have been deceived by them and in God’s sovereignty, though He loves you, He allowed it – if only for a season.
Thank you for your generosity of spirit, Watcher. I’m sure we have things in common as well as disagreements, but life is filled with anomalies.
You talk about loyalty as if it were a bad thing, or sin. My understanding of sites like this and, in particular, people like Zorro, is that there is no place for disagreement or dissent. It is considered threatening to speak against the issues raised.
This is exactly the same accusation levelled at some leaders of large movements or churches. They are considered defensive and unapproachable, always ready to dismiss a contrary argument.
I find the complete opposite with my leaders, but then, my intentions and motives are different and I count loyalty as a virtue, although not loyalty at the expense of integrity, but it all depends on how issues are dealt with and in what spirit they are outworked.
I have just had a meal and fellowship with my pastor, a senior man in the movement I am part of, and I know I am at perfect liberty and ease to discuss anything with him without fear of sanction or censure, and which we do as the occasion arises. In fact our interest in doctrine leads to healthy discussions on a number of subjects. Perfect agreement isn’t necessary to healthy conversations. Relationships, and even lasting friendships, are built on differences as well as similarities. Ideas flow better in a place where many opinions are permitted and expressed. This I find with our movement to a great degree. There is as much variety as in any large enterprise, and all contributions are generally valued and heard.
I can assure you that both my pastor and I have different views in a number of areas which we are free to discuss with one another without resorting to the kinds of accusative attacks seen on some of these sites. We do not agree, either of us, on some things other leaders in our movement promote, but do not deal with these things in an aggressive way, or as gossip, or innuendo, or accusatively, but rather prayerfully, respectfully and in confidence, looking for ways to advance the cross of Christ rather than the ideas of men. We simply choose to work together on the many areas were we do have agreement, in obedience to Christ, and allow those other issues to be worked through with time and more clarity.
It is my understanding that even the Apostles of Christ had some disagreements along the way which they had to sort through. This in no way, however, removed them either from the love of Christ, the great commission, or from the joint paths they had chosen as co-workers with Christ in the work of the gospel. Indeed some of their disputes were quite sharp and confrontational, but they seem to have got through them ultimately.
So perfect agreement in the Body isn’t the issue, but how brethren work together even through the differences of understanding means and methodology. It is part of the maturing process of believers to work through problems circumspectly and in an attitude of meekness.
So your claim that I display unquestioning loyalty is only true in the sense that I do not publicly denounce leaders, but, from a personal aspect, it would be totally disloyal to not mention to a leader, if I have the opportunity, any concerns I might have over presentation, doctrine or methodology. I question everything. I measure everything against the Word. But there is a time and a place for dealing with these issues and this forum isn’t it.
So in these terms loyalty is based on honesty and integrity, not spilling the beans on publicly critical sites, especially to a person of dubious intent such as Zorro, whose obvious response to my unwillingness to share my views with him was to denounce it as evasion, when, in fact, I show more courage and integrity and Biblical accuracy than he does by going straight to the person and not behind his back using a faceless comment.
So, whilst I understand what you are saying, I can also declare to you that nobody here knows what I may have said to anyone in question or anyone associated with them simply because my main aim is not to pull people down but to seek reconciliation wherever possible.
So any commentary I make is in direct communication with individuals on these sites. You can do all the finger pointing you want, but your actual concerns could only ever be satisfied if you have access to those who you claim offend you, not by publicly denouncing people who are never going to respond on a critical site such as this anyway. Why? Because someone as aggressive as Zorro will never allow a person to present their case without nasty put-downs and further accusations, and this site is littered with evidence of this.
I entered this discussion as a protest about the way Zorro was allowed to continue to harass and harangue commenters cruelly, unkindly and without sanction. I said my piece directly to him, and with this having been said, I have moved on. he knows my views of his tactics. So do you.
I also added in a previous comment my views on the Kong situation. That is all I will be saying here.
Kind regards.
On the topic of unquestioning loyalty, just read a comment from a City Harvest Church blog:
“Churches like CHC promote this “do not question the leadership” mindset. While I agree that we should submit to our leaders, I think leaders should also be accountable to their members”.
“It’s frustrating when you want to ask about important issues concerning the leadership, and you get “counselled” or “strongly advised” to trust them and/or trust God to lead them. Then, when you get so sick of their errant behaviour (which you’re not supposed to question) that you leave the church, you’re told by members to mind your own business since you no longer attend the church.”
“So basically whether you’re a member or not, you can never really ask critical questions about the church leadership. That’s really frustrating to those of us who use our brains more, think critically (not criticisingly), and dare to speak up when we observe that the behaviour of leaders contradicts the Bible.”
To which came this response:
“Come to think of it, isn’t this like Singapore in microcosm? Your leadership and their followers learn very well, I must say.”
Now these comments come very close to a conversation an exC3 member had with a senior C3 pastor who regularly fills in for Kong Hee.
Why am I not surprised at the CHC comment above, in light of Kong Hee’s mentors.
Reading over your comment…
“I have long held the view that Kong’s excursion into the pop world was ill-conceived. I was saying this when the enterprise was still in its embryonic stages. I was disturbed by Sun’s ambition long before she embarked on her new career.”
What do you think about these comments taken from the Crossover project article linked below” Ethel?
https://c3churchwatch.wordpress.com/2012/12/05/pringles-prophecy-gave-kong-hee-sun-ho-confirmation-to-resume-the-crossover-project/
“It was all good, but Kong needed a Scriptural confirmation. When his respected mentors Ulk Ekman, AR Bernard and Phil Pringle gave the same verse from Mark 4:35, “Let us cross over to the other side,” Kong knew there was no more space for hesitation, and the Crossover Project was born.”
“Finally, it was a word given by Phil Pringle to Sun privately in May 2005 that gave them clarity to their path. “He said, ‘Five more years, because God is going to open a big door for CHC in China to be a blessing to the people.’ That word gave us the courage, faith and confirmation to resume the Crossover Project,” said Kong.”
It appears Ethel, you are opposing an apparent “prophecy”?
Galatians 5:4
4 KH have become estranged from Christ, KH who attempt to be justified by law; KH have fallen from grace.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
-Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,
-Romans 4:13-14 (NKJV)
Pastor KH If you see preaching mixture of Law & Grace….
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills (self righteousness & mixture of LAW) but the Spirit (Grace) gives life.”
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
-1 Corinthians 15:56 (NKJV)
Pastor KH ….. As it is written
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24which things are symbolic. For these are [a]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—25for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—26but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written:
Pastor KH which mountain are you from? SR mountain?
5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. Revelation 2
Jesus wrote to remove the lampstand means to remove the whole C_ _church
Submit to Government
1Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will [h]bring judgment on themselves. Romans 13
Jesus appointed Singapore Government.