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arise, Barclay, c3 church, c3 oxford falls, ccc, heresy, heretics, John Barclay, kelsey, Mark Kelsey, McHugh, Peter McHugh, Phil Pringle, Pringle, word of faith, Word of Faith Heresy
Author John Barclay records the history of the C3 Movement from it’s early beginnings in his book “Arise” (endorsed by Phil Pringle).
Chapter 12 is titled ‘Counselling’. On page 115, Barclay writes about the testimony of someone called Peter McHugh between 1982-3. Barclay wrote, “He [Peter] and Mark Kelsey had studied together at Univesity” (pg. 115).
Barclay records Peter McHugh getting saved and explores the process how his wife got ‘saved’. John Barclay writes,
“He got a letter away as soon as possible to Lyn, and when the reply came back it was to tell him very simply she never wanted to see him again. That of course took no account of a number of factors which had since come into operation, factors which Lyn then could never understand.
The excercising of faith by a very determined man of God can work miracles, and Peter began the positive confession of the restoration of their marriage. In the week prior to Lyn’s return to Australia he spoke constantly aloud to affirm that she would be saved. He said it over and over, out loud, speaking his faith in thanks to God, and both Mark [Kelsey] and Phil [Pringle] agreed with him.
His own conversion had been so total and so swift that now there was no room for either doubt or failure. No possibility of it. He gave it no thought, but spoke out success.
‘Life and death’ we are told, ‘are in the power of the tongue’, and Peter now used that power to inject life into a once dead marriage.”
(Source: John Barclay, Arise, 12 Counselling, Covenant Publishing, 1987, pg. 116-117.)
Above, John Barclay recorded McHugh, Pringle and Kelsey practicing the Word of Faith Heresy. We have to stress this again: Phil Pringle endorsed and allowed John Barclay to record these events. Phil Pringle exposed Mark Kelsey and himself practicing the Word of Faith heresy.
If you read our older articles, readers will be shocked to see the Word of Faith’s connections to New Age and Occult practices.
C3 Church Watch 
Just based on that excerpt (not directly showing that the wife got saved or not), can you explain what he’s doing is scripturally wrong?
In fact based on 1 Corinthians 7:14-16 he is doing the right thing by staying with her and v16 states “who knows” if she will be saved. Combine that with 2 Peter 3:9 – “He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come” – and I think what he is doing is fine and God is interested in her salvation. Not to mention by acting like this you could assume he is aiming to act like The Lord and loving her like Christ loved the church (Eph 5:25).
Furthermore Jesus told us to “believe what we have asked for in prayer”, and that God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16). So for this bloke praying the will of God (all to be saved) what’s wrong with that? If he claiming a jet ski or BMW it might be a different story but when it’s salvation I can’t see anything wrong with it.
I’d like to know your scriptural view (not personal attacks) on this.
Thanks
The guy prayed to God for his marriage to be restored, and he says it was.
Are you saying that a Christian can’t pray out loud, as he did?
By all means, keep getting stuck into Pringle and Kelsey, but this is not an example of them being heretics. It is an example of believing God.
While I’ve had horrid experiences in a WoF church, I totally understand what Mike is saying, and am interested in what people have to say (without it descending into a flame war).
On a personal note, I have often wondered about the best way to pray for somebody’s salvation, particularly in relation to God’s will and people’s free will to choose or reject salvation (yep, it was an Arminian church).
Hello Mike,
Just off the top of my head, here are a few thoughts:
“The exercising of faith […]”
We don’t “exercise” our faith, we rest in it – we are to cease striving and trust in God.
“[…] by a very determined man of God […]”
The Bible says that it doesn’t depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy, so “determination” has nothing to do with it. “Determination” actually speaks of self-effort and works, which are in fact diametrically opposed to faith.
“[…] can work miracles […]”
God can work miracles, but men cannot. To suggest that men *can* work miracles is a lie that elevates them to the same level as God, and it is therefore blasphemous.
“[…] and Peter began the positive confession of the restoration of their marriage. In the week prior to Lyn’s return to Australia he spoke constantly aloud to affirm that she would be saved. He said it over and over, out loud, speaking his faith […]”
That is not faith, that is wilfulness and presumption – it is trying to get the outcome that one desires, rather than determining what the will of God is and falling into line with that. “Affirmation” in this context is actually a new age technique, and it springs from an occult root. No one can twist God’s arm or force his hand – it is He who is the potter, we are the clay.
Note that Peter “said it over and over”, however Jesus instructed his disciples “And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.”
@Zorro
“We don’t “exercise” our faith, we rest in it – we are to cease striving and trust in God.”
I agree. You got it in one.
So Roundhouse,
It’s good to see that we have some theological common ground 🙂
Now that has been established, my challenge for you would be this: having so wholeheartedly concurred with my first assertion, is it possible that you could consider on their merits those that follow, and perhaps end up joining all the dots?
I have re-read the article, and would offer an additional observation regarding the following quote:
“Peter now used that power […]”
When one “uses power” to obtain a result according to one’s own desires, that is nothing less than pure occult – it is the same thing as “casting a spell”.
WoF doctrine is presented as being “Christian”, and is very enticing – just as Satan himself can convincingly appear as an angel of light, and just his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.
There is a proverb that says “There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of that way is death”. The critical thing to keep in mind is that it is not what “seems right” to us that is correct; it is rather what *God says* that is to be trusted – hence the need for us to know the Scriptures well, and to have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying as he reveals to us the truths contained therein.
“We don’t “exercise” our faith, we rest in it – we are to cease striving and trust in God.”
So you are saying that when we hear and receive something from the Word of God and believe it we do nothing? Or do we act on what we have believed?
Is faith alive because we believe the Word or the Promise, or because we add corresponding action?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
For instance, were you saved because you believed in your heart that Jesus is Lord, or because you believed in your heart and confessed with your mouth?
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10
So faith comes by hearing, and our heart receives him as Lord, but it is the confession of what we believe which leads to salvation.
@Zorro,
God can work miracles, but men cannot. To suggest that men *can* work miracles is a lie that elevates them to the same level as God, and it is therefore blasphemous.
Not strictly true. For instance, the working of miracles is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and, along with all gifts and manifestations of the Spirit, is distributed severally by the Holy Spirit to whoever He chooses. It is His grace, but worked through and by the person He chooses to operate the gift through.
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all…
1 Corinthians 12:4-7
So the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all, which tells us that the manifestation is through and by the recipient according to the will of the Spirit.
Therefore, rather than elevate men to to the same level as God, the gifts, including he working of miracles, elevate God as He works through men.
Without the Spirit and His gifts, men can do nothing, but under His leadership, they are permitted to operate the gifts and manifestations according to His will.
“the working of miracles is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and, along with all gifts and manifestations of the Spirit, is distributed severally by the Holy Spirit to whoever He chooses. It is His grace…”
To Ethel Lumbo,
The fact you understand grace is good. To this truth, we are glad your eyes are opened. To see how your views vary from Phil Pringle’s, we felt it would it would be very good for you to see this article.
“To Trigger The Impact of Grace In Your Life”
https://c3churchwatch.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/pringle-says-honour-bevere-with-money-to-trigger-the-impact-of-grace-in-your-life/
Pringle believes that a believer can trigger grace in their lives (which makes the definition of grace pointless), contrary to what you believe about grace. We are happy that you can see this marvelous truth.
We hope you can lead people out from this false grace that is taught by Pringle and his leadership if you do go to a C3 church.
And this is C3 Whitehorse now Stairway Church pastor Peter McHugh, endorsed by heretic Bill Johnson (of glory cloud/fire tunnel fame).
http://www.cccw.org.au/#/peter-mchugh/above-the-line
“Lyn and I became followers of Jesus in 1982 in the church Phil & Christine Pringle are leading in Sydney, now C3Church Oxford Falls.
We were asked to start a church in Canberra in 1985. After returning to Sydney in 1988 to rejoin Phil Pringle’s staff, we were again sent out to plant a church in 1990, this time in Melbourne. We have been leading and building this church ever since.
During this time we have experienced the highs and lows of being in full time paid ministry. The journey has been fabulous as we have seen the Lord achieve so much and change us both in the process! We are eternally grateful to all who have helped us over the years to see the Lord’s vision come to pass.
When we came to faith we were separated. The Lord was so gracious and kind in the way He healed us and worked with us to rebuild our marriage. We have three incredible children. They are all married, two with children – being grandparents is just remarkable. They are all still in Melbourne and actively involved in our congregation.
The most amazing thing is that the best is yet to come.”
Firstly on the WoF issue; having being raised in the Salvos, then attending a mainstream Pentecostal church, then C3 (both for long stints), I have been exposed to WoF either by my own interest (earlier on) or being predominant doctrine (c3). Compare my upbringing to the churches I chose to go to and you’ve got both ends of extremes! (Although Salvos do preach tithing, but I suppose you gotta sustain a church somehow; admittedly they don’t preach WoF as we know it).
In the last few years since I stopped tithing (which was fear based pretty much) and changed my Biblical view on giving, I’ve realised that most of my situations where God has provided have been born out of prayer and trust, not necessarily giving. Therefore I believe these experiences are much more Biblical than a lot of WoF teaching, as Jesus teaches. No I don’t discount giving and that as Jesus said, if you give, you will be blessed. But I cannot find anywhere in Scripture where you are told to give to get. I know people do it but I have never received back when I’ve only given with this motivation. And unless God directly tells you to do like in the Elijah’s widow story, I see no Biblical basis for doing so. As people often say, I’m sure there are many disillusioned Christians out there who might give with good intentions or “give out of need” (a favourite C3 phrase – show me Biblical example please?!!!), who haven’t received back straight away, and get angry at God; I know I have. I’ve prayed the prayers, quoted the Scriptures, given the money, got angry at God, never received the overseas trip/new car etc that I asked for; yet when I was in danger of losing my house and getting put through the ringer, my complete trust in God saw us through. So to sum it up, most of the time I’ve implemented WoF principals, they haven’t delivered, or at least not straight away like often promised or “believed” (God forgive me if I have forgotten times you have!); and what HAS got me through is faith and trust in my Heavenly Father.
Turning to salvation; I often simply pray that God would reveal Himself to particular people, that they’d be “saved” etc. I believe that 2 Peter verse; I mean, what harm could ever come to a person’s life if they DID get saved? Last year I watched myc3review’s excellent dissection of Kubala’s offering message where he (according to Daniel) “Tramples on the Blood of Christ”; obviously you can’t argue with Andrew if God has told him to give thousands of dollars several times, however the notion that we can give money to get someone’s salvation is ridiculous. If Andrew was referring to “sowing a seed” to help build a big church that will influence the community etc blah blah, yeah fine. But if he is preaching otherwise he needs to read Romans again. Anyway, where did all this “sowing seed” business come from? WoF? Or just a select interpretation of the Bible?
Epilogue – was just looking through some old posts on this site; found a few quotes from ex-c3 members, ie “Jesus spoke about money more than any other subject”. Well if it’s true, how many of these have been taken out of context, or used to push prosperity doctrine?