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HOW KONG HEE IS GAINING FINANCIAL SUPPORT FOR HIS LEGAL DEFENSE
We find the City Harvest Church scandal perplexing. Why are Singaporean authorities allowing Kong Hee to leave Singapore to resume ‘pastoral’ duties? This article will be examining how both Kong Hee and his Advisory Pastor Phil Pringle have been using churches outside Singapore to financially support Kong Hee’s legal battles.
We have been analysing Phil Pringle’s Presence Conferences and what Phil Pringle has been teaching us about Kong Hee’s circumstances.
Thanks to Phil Pringle, we have learnt how Kong Hee is gaining financial support for his legal battles. Earlier this year, Phil Pringle said the following:
“I was in Singapore last week ah- folks with our good friends Kong and Sun Hee, although they are very rarely there when I am speaking because it gives them a chance to get out amongst the Asian community or various parts around the world and share in churches their burden ‘n what they’re facing and keep support happening and maintain a healthier relationship and communion with the wider body. And so that’s part of the reason why I am able to go there and uh- and they’ve just had ah- one really interesting breakthrough in this last week where the Commission of Charities (that’s the organisation overseeing charities in Singapore) has exonerated Sun from all ah- all charges against her so-“
Source: Phil Pringle, “Awakening — Part 1″ – Phil Pringle, http://www2.myc3church.net/videos/awakening-%E2%80%93-part-1-phil-pringle, Sunday 14th April 2013. (Accessed 15/04/2013.)
Why is Kong Hee leaving CHC to “share in churches their burden”? Why does he go to other churches to “keep support happening”? Why is Kong Hee heavily involved with Phil Pringle’s Presence Conferences? The answer is very simple.
Back in his 2011 Presence Conference, Phil Pringle prophesied over Kong Hee and then encouraged all the churches gathered to financially support Kong Hee. Not once was it explained to those who attended why he was under investigation. While encouraging people to give, take note what Pringle says,
“Then, I think it was even more for him. I can’t remember the figures. But I know that for- they had to raise seven million dollars for members of staff and others to travel. That’s just that area. If you’ve ever been to Singapore, you know how expensive this place is. To fight the case he has had to employ a legal firm. And I know what the bills are. They are nearly a million dollars each time they come. Between half a million and a million dollars each time those bills come. His church is not allowed to pay one cent of his personal cost that he is incurring in this battle. He has to find it himself.
He’s sold his house. He has scratched together everything he can. One of the things that I’m doing is going there. I’ve made a commitment to be there once every two weeks. Normally it ends up being once every three weeks because of a variety of commitments that I’ve already got and doing things. But when I’m gone, he’s able to travel. And when I’m there, he’s able to travel and preach and find support amongst Asia and other churches.
Uh- I know that he was finding it hard to put some money together to get a cup of Starbucks at one stage. And uh- it’s a challenge. There’s been new legislation passed on the use of commercial spaces in Singapore since this case has come. So the religio- the restriction on his church is severe, ah, in that area [inaudible] after their purchase, go into co-ownership with ah, SunTec. And we’re in there. I will be speaking there in a couple days time. I will be on Friday to speak there happily.” – Phil Pringle, http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=uwNignarJCg, Presence Conference 2011.
If it costs Kong Hee and his team “nearly a million dollars each time they come” to speak at Presence Conference, can you imagine how much Kong Hee is receiving in love offerings? Remember that when Pringle preaches at CHC it allows Kong Hee “to travel and preach and find support amongst Asia and other churches”. So why does Kong Hee travel if it is so expensive? Why go speak at a church event like Phil Pringle’s conferences? What does Kong gain? Pringle answers this above when he says,
“There’s been new legislation passed on the use of commercial spaces in Singapore since this case has come. So the religio- the restriction on his church is severe, ah, in that area [inaudible] after their purchase, go into co-ownership with ah, SunTec.”
What is this new legislation? We can’t find any specific information on this. However Phil Pringle stated,
“His church is not allowed to pay one cent of his personal cost that he is incurring in this battle. He has to find it himself.”
Does it make sense now? If new Singaporean legislation has established that City Harvest Church cannot support Kong Hee’s legal battles, it explains why Phil Pringle is speaking in Singapore so often. It allows Kong Hee to gain financial support from different churches around the world. It explains why Kong Hee is invited back to speak at Phil Pringle’s Presence Conference.
And guess what? Kong can say whatever he wants to whoever he wants… and get away with it. How would Singapore know what his agenda is in other countries? Who would bother keeping him accountable to what he says around the world?
Well we have all the audio we need to prove that Phil Pringle has been allowing Kong Hee to use his C3 Presence Conference to financially support Kong Hee’s financial battles. To confirm that Kong Hee is in fact receiving financial support from Phil Pringle’s C3 Movement, Kong Hee prayed the following at Presence Conference 2012 on the first night (not the opening night):
“Father I just pray even right now from the front to the back, from the left to the right, that tonight you move in a great way. Lord you know that it’s been a tiring time for the last twenty three months. For every step of the way, you’ve been with me, you’ve been with us. And Lord for all that C3 has poured into City Harvest Church, I pray that you multiply back to them, every church –every leader, thirty fold, sixty fold, a hundred fold for your glory we pray. Amen.” – Kong Hee, Presence Conference 2012, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeIYljvQ0G0: 18:11, Day 1.
In this prayer, Kong Hee acknowledges that “C3 has poured into City Harvest Church”. By ‘poured’ he means ‘financially poured’. If you are not familiar with the term “thirty fold, sixty fold, a hundred fold”, it is Word of Faith jargon that means financial multiplication. The idea is that if you give financially, god will multiply your returns supernaturally. The weird thing about this prayer is that Kong Hee said C3 poured money into City Harvest Church. Why does CHC need the cash? Doesn’t Kong need the cash?
While it is debatable if the money above went to CHC or to Kong Hee, the prayer above informs us that Kong Hee IS getting money out of C3 conferences for possibly his benefit. It could be debatable that the money above went to CHC or to himself.
Because Phil Pringle asked people to give money specifically to Kong Hee’s legal battles back in 2011, it is of our opinion that Kong Hee here in 2012 was acknowledging that he received this financial support, using his church as a safeguard rather than saying he received the financial support personally.
Furthermore, in this same sermon we also hear a very one-sided and propaganda-like presentation of Kong Hee’s situation. So we are seeing what Pringle has said about Kong Hee to be true. Phil Pringle’s Presence Conference was a place Kong Hee felt safe enough to “share… their burden ‘n what they’re facing and keep support happening”.
This sermon not only had the above prayer. This sermon is the very sermon that has caused controversy in Singapore where Kong Hee claimed that God apologised to him. This is why we believe some people are outraged with the latest snippet – they know Kong Hee is distorting the severity of the case for his personal and financial gain. Read again what Kong Hee said on the first night of Presence Conference 2012:
“And [God the Father] said, ‘My son, I’m so sorry that you need to go through this alone. But you need to die and you need to go through this to be the Saviour of the world!’ And God the Father had broken and He wept as He turned His face, when His son took the sin of the whole world.
I was saying all this and I’m hearing myself behind the pulpit- and I froze. I could not utter another word. And I sobbed and I shook. Because those were my exact sentiments.
“Father, Father! Why? My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me and thrown me to the dogs?”
And for the first time in eight months, I heard the voice. It is not the voice of a strict angry judge that only want me to perform and build a big church and nothing I do is ever good enough for him. No. It’s not a voice of angry judge. It’s not the voice of a slave driver. That just wants to take and take and wring me dry. But it was a voice of a tender, loving, broken-hearted Father.
For the first time in eight months, God – I heard Him crying. And He said, “My son, Kong, thank you! Thank you for going through this. I need you to go through this alone so that you and City Harvest Church can be the man and the ministry I call it to be. I’m so sorry. But you need to go through with this by yourself, to bring a change to your generation”.
Oh come on! Give the Lord a big hand tonight!
I hear God saying for the first time in eight months, “I love you! I love you! I love you!” Waves upon waves of God’s love- the love of the Father, just, saturated me. All I could say was, “Abba! Abba!! AABBAAAA!!! Daddy! ABBA!!!” And I knew, everything was going to be, alright.
Everything was going to be alright.” – Kong Hee, http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=FKVSXfjhB14, Presence Conference 2012, Night Service, 11/04/2012.
The absolute negligence of Pringle inviting Kong Hee to speak at Presence Conference from 2010 to 2012 was scandalous. He gave Kong Hee the floor to present his propaganda-like stories diguised as sermons. Furthermore, Kong encouraged people in the 2012 Presence Conference to empty their bank accounts so God can financially bless Christians. Not once did Phil Pringle or Kong Hee give an accurate account as to why he was under investigations or why he was facing charges. Why Kong Hee and Phil Pringle are not under severe scrutiny by government watchdogs in Australia, we do not know. Why are they not being scrutinised for misleading thousands of people at these events? Would they be giving Kong Hee financial support or emptying their bank accounts at Kong Hee’s command if they knew the severity of the investigations?
The negligence continued when Phil Pringle allowed Kong Hee to speak at Presence Conference 2013. Recently Pringle asked ignorant Christians attending to once again give sacrificially to financially support Kong Hee’s legal case.
Here Phil Pringle said,
“I would like you just to take a card, an envelope if you’ve got one nearby. And if you’d like to participate in this, I’d like you to consider doing that. Whatever you can do it would be helpful, I know, to them. This will all go completely to Pastor Kong to help with his- costs. He has to pay this week $680,000 I think it is, for his legal fees. He’s covering his whole team’s fees. They have to mount a vigorous defense over three years. Those numbers weigh heavily on- on a person and they have prohibited him from asking his own congregation for any help.
He can not use any of his own church funds. They’ve sold there- they sold the unit they were in. Others have moved to help them in other countries and I would like to think that we can be friends to these people in one of their darkest hours.” – Phil Pringle, http://www.youtube.com/watch? &v=2g-BB9BF7xk , Presence Conference 2013.
The picture again presented is that new Singapore legislation will not allow Kong Hee to use “any of his own church funds”. Instead, just like what was occurring in Phil Pringle’s C3 Presence Conferences, it appears that other churches “have moved to help them [Kong Hee and Sun Ho] in other countries”.
Since Phil Pringle made a video where a number of pastors decided to support Kong Hee, we are starting to see that deeper controversies are growing in this scandal and expanding across the globe. We also observed that Kong Hee spoke at Ed Young’s church in 2011.
Kong also spoke recently at Ed Young’es C3 2013 Conference.
Kong Hee, Singapore Megachurch Pastor Arrested for Fraud, Visits Ed Young’s C3 2013
Did Kong Hee get love offerings from these churches after spreading more propaganda about his plight against the Singaporean government? Why are pastors like John Bevere, Mark Conner, Casey Treat, David Yonggi Cho and many more supporting an alleged crook? Are these the churches that Pringle was alluding to when he said that “Others have moved to help them in other countries”?
Men like John Bevere, Yonggi Cho, Casey Treat and Ed Young have already been exposed as false Christian teachers. Is it any wonder they would support someone like Kong Hee? Are we seeing a banding of false teachers being only accountable to their pack rather than the greater body of Christ?
This scandal needs to be addressed by the universal body of Christ. How far must men like Phil Pringle and Kong Hee go before the church starts dealing with these impostors in the church?
Update 08/08/2013: Provided links and sources to Ed Young’s 2011 Conference.
NOTE: ALL SCREEN GRABS TAKEN ON 08/08/2013.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this post gets taken down due to threats of legal advice. But it all makes sense doesn’t it. There’s nothing hidden that won’t be made known.
Here, Churchwatch, are your very own words:
We have been around for 4 years and have developed a reputation that we give a hoot about people who have been hurt, let down, and abused by churches. The church leaders have their fan clubs of admiring wannabe pastors and church leaders. They pay the dough to sit in their presence at the interminable conferences held in nice places all over the world.
Who is the fan club for those hurt by these churches and leaders? Well, TWW is one. Julie Anne Smith at Spiritual Sounding Board and Kris at SGM Survivors are others. All of us raise red flags to help people know about church settings that are optimized for potential abuse.”
You show not a care toward those hurt or’abused’ by churches, for you do not lead them to a place of love and understanding in Christ. What you do do is feed their resentment and advertise your own instability. Take heed Churchwatch, for the Bible clearly states in Ezekiel 3:20-21: If a righteous person turns from his righteousness and commits injustice, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die. Because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered, but his blood I will require at your hand.
Seems to me you are drowning in the blood of others as much as your own.
Maybe you can be a bit creative in your replies than copying and pasting them on multiple entries! ie this is the exact reply you posted on the Furtick one!
FTW, this isn’t slandering, it’s voicing concern about the involvement of c3 and CHC and financial practices, whether legit or not. As someone who has attended a c3, I definitely would not be happy knowing if my money was going to support Kong’s legal expenses.
If Phil wants to take up an offering at Presence to help Kong, all well and good. But maybe he should preface the offering with, “Hey guys, Kong is charged with alleged conspiracy to commit criminal breach of trust to the tune of approximately AUD$37million; if you would like to contribute to an offering to assist his legal team we’re gonna take up an offering.”
Hey, that’s just the truth. No it won’t be pretty if he goes to jail; but at least Phil could be up front about what’s going on. Because when it all comes out, it may not look good for Phil if it seems he’s been holding back some of the truth.
So tell us, Nicolelouise1, has your thinking changed at all, given what has transpired in the court case since you commented here last year?
Chew Eng Han has called Kong a liar – in court, to his very face. He has accused Kong of deceiving the members of his “church”, and he has produced evidence in the form of emails to back up his allegations – the sordid details are being splashed over the pages of Singaporean media every day, and every day things look worse and worse for Kong.
Do you think that those who gave money to support Kong are aware of this? If they are, do you think that they consider that they were wise in helping to fund Kong’s defence?
My thinking has not changed.
I speak only what God has revealed to me.
Whether or not Kong is or is not guilty is not my business, nor is it my place to judge him. Neither is it yours.
You think like God has no knowledge of what occurs. You act like it is your place to pass judgement. Tell me Amused, exactly how much money have you yourself invested in Kong and/or his church that you might stand and pass judgement against the accused. You speak out like you have a place to do so. Quite amusing really, such a lot of output and no input, but that is usually the case.
All this little media circus created here does, is supply you all with a place to feed your anger and resentment that it may fester and stew and become something much more than what was at the beginning. Churchwatch in no way care about people, or this would be a space filled with love and gratitude which comes from healing. But it is not. All it is is a place of vengeful attack coming under the guise of apparently ‘keeping people informed.’
Are you amused amused, I certainly am.
“Churchwatch in no way care about people”
Tell that to the victims who have left these abusive and mind-controlling cults.
Victims? So tell me friend, what healing do you offer other than to feed their anger and hurt and in doing so, feed yourself!
“Whether or not Kong is or is not guilty is not my business […]”
In my comment, I pointed out that Chew Eng Han has turned against Kong, that further incriminating evidence has emerged during the course of the trial, and that on the basis of what has transpired thus far, things don’t look good for Kong.
These are all indisputable facts, but it seems that somehow you are unable to comprehend that. It appears that the brainwashing you have experienced at the hands of C3 “leaders” has seriously impaired your cognitive faculties; this particular problem is one that can be commonly observed among members of cults.
“You think like God has no knowledge of what occurs.”
God knows exactly what Kong has done, and he knows exactly what Phil Pringle has done, too. That’s why they are both in such big strife: because they are unrepentant sinners, and they cannot hide their many misdeeds from God.
“Tell me Amused, exactly how much money have you yourself invested in Kong and/or his church […]”
“Invested”? “Invested”? Tell you what, why don’t you go and view Sun Ho’s videos – “China Wine”, “Fancy Free” and “Mr Bill”. After that, go and find out what how much money was sunk into those execrable abominations, and what returns were made. Then you can let us know whether any of the money thrown at Sun Ho represented an “investment”, or whether it might as well have simply been flushed down the nearest toilet.
And by the way, CHC, like C3, is not a church – it is simply a personality / prosperity cult that serves as a tax dodge for those running it.
“All this little media circus created here does, is supply you all with a place to feed your anger and resentment that it may fester and stew and become something much more than what was at the beginning.”
Actually, it provides a place where people from C3 can find out the truth (Phil Pringle is never going to tell them, is he?). And C3CW has a very wide international readership, including even some from among the C3 “leadership” (in fact Phil Pringle himself reads this web site, despite the fact that he has forbidden others in his movement from so doing).
I understand that you are not very bright, Nicolelouse1, and I appreciate that you have no spiritual discernment. However, fawning over charlatans such as Phil Pringle and Kong Hee won’t help you, in fact it will only exacerbate your condition. You epitomise the mindset of C3 cult victims with your statement:
“[…] you do not lead [those hurt or abused by churches] to a place of love and understanding in Christ.”
which is nothing less than projection by proxy, since it is actually C3 who do not lead people to a place of love and understanding in Christ, as they flatly refuse to preach the Gospel. You should be aware that your support for C3 means that you share in their sins, and, if you will not repent, you will also share in their judgement.
“I understand that you are not very bright”
You know, I see these kinds of statements a lot around here, despite the rules clearly stating that everyone should treat everyone on here with respect…
“You know, I see these kinds of statements a lot around here, despite the rules clearly stating that everyone should treat everyone on here with respect…”
It’s not disrespectful to say that Nicole Louise is not very bright, Andrew, it’s simply a fact. Given that is the case, Nicole would be best advised to refrain from venturing her opinions when all it will accomplish is to put her ignorance on public display. This is actually the same reason why C3 “leaders” and “pastors” should not “preach” or “teach”, and why, in particular, they should not make their sermons publicly accessible on the web (they seem to comprehend this, albeit dimly – why else would they be shutting down CW youtube accounts by citing “infringement of copyright”, do you suppose?)
Are you going to tell us about Kong Hee, Andrew? Would you like to explain to us how the fact that Phil Pringle’s best mate has ripped off CHC to the tune of SG$23,000,000 should simply be overlooked? Kong Hee has stated “[…] I knew, everything was going to be, alright” – do you think he’ll still be saying that once he’s started a long stint in Changi prison? And what about *your* support for Kong, Andrew? How much money have *you* personally given to help fund his defence?
Anyway, looking on the bright side, I note your comment “[…] I see these kinds of statements a lot around here […]”, from which one could only deduce that you must therefore be reading this site quite extensively, even though you appear to disagree with the thrust of it, and even though Phil Pringle has ordered his followers not to. This is highly encouraging for the Churchwatch team, since it reinforces the view that Phil Pringle has about as much authority as a yapping Pomeranian and it shows that C3 apologists simply can’t resist following C3CW articles. I can’t imagine how embarrassing this must be for Phil, and how infuriating, given that C3’s dirty laundry is being aired here on a constant basis and he is completely powerless to stop it. Some “Apostle” he is, huh?
Sure. Ask the average guy in rural NSW, who does not personally know Kong Hee or even Phil Pringle, for an answer on the events in a church from Singapore. Someone who doesn’t agree with you and therefore is “not very bright.” I’m a walking encyclopaedia on this topic. I’ve heard accounts from both sides of the court case, but I am in no way involved at all with its so I’m not going to pass judgement either way. I’m not the self-appointed Churchwatchers.
And you assume we are self appointed.
As we’ve stated in the past, we compromise of church elders, leaders, pastors, laypersons and congregants fulfilling the need of Christians worldwide who are trying to figure out what is going on in the church.
We grow and teach those that are trying to hear God’s voice to see what the issues are in the visible church. Honestly, we didn’t know the need was that universal for both abused Christian and non-Christians.
Unlike Phil Pringle, Brian Houston and Kong Hee – we actually do have genuine and higher qualifications. Putting qualifications aside, people are seeing first hand that we put our faith and authority in the scriptures to expose that these men reject the faith and authority of scripture. So who are the self appointed ones Andrew?
We tend to think it is those that desecrate Christ and His Word and then have the audacity in demanding Christian’s follow their immoral philosophies and practices.
“I’ve heard accounts from both sides of the court case […]”
SG$23,000,000 is gone, and it’s not coming back, because Kong Hee and Sun Ho blew it all pretending to be rich and living the high life. What exactly is the account that constitutes “the other side” of that particular fact, Andrew?
“[…] I am in no way involved at all with [Kong’s case] so I’m not going to pass judgement either way.”
So you are not going to pass judgement on Kong’s case, even though his guilt is quite clear cut at this stage, but you *are* going to pass judgement on someone who (correctly) points out that a commenter here is unintelligent? Do you think that maybe – just maybe – Kong’s theft of SG$23,000,000 is just a touch more egregious, as crimes go, than saying something that might hurt poor Nicole Louise’s feelings?
“I’m not the self-appointed Churchwatchers.”
And so who, exactly, appointed *you*, Andrew?
“Unlike Phil Pringle, Brian Houston and Kong Hee – we actually do have genuine and higher qualifications.”
Wait, you people have qualifications? What kind of qualifications? And who are you accountable to?
Qualifications or not, you would be able to tell who is true or false by comparing what we say or those who claim to be “pastors” say to the Word of God. The work of every Christian is to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. If you do not know who is true or false, the best place to start is the bible. Read it as best you can in context and ask the basic questions. You can’t go wrong.
john john said:
So you’re just another worthless troll. Asking lots of the questions, but answering none.
Another one of the “No, I’m in no way part of C3/CHC, but I do support their foolishness” crowd…
In all fairness, John, it’s the same questions they ask of these pastors. It’ll be a tad hypocritical if they demand this information from Pringle, etc, and remain silent when someone asks it of them.
“Qualifications or not, you would be able to tell who is true or false by comparing what we say or those who claim to be “pastors” say to the Word of God. The work of every Christian is to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. If you do not know who is true or false, the best place to start is the bible. Read it as best you can in context and ask the basic questions. You can’t go wrong.”
Nope. Not good enough. You said you have qualifications. I would like you to back that claim up and give information. Just as you asked of Phil Pringle on here some time ago.
Andrew – there are ex-C3 people commenting here who have actually attended a C3 Bible College full-time. One of them gained incredibly high marks, and was ordained as a lay-pastor within their system (at the time). That same person has since been able to compare their work to what is taught at a high profile seminary, Moore College. That same person, taught by unqualified ‘lecturers’ at c3 College (including Pringle) would have received a resounding fail at Moore College or anywhere else.
An example of C3 college teaching on predestination? Sum total of 2 min lecture, by unqualified ‘lecturer’? “See that door, it has nothing written above it, now go through that door and look back. You will see the words “predestined” written above”. Lots of $$$$ outlaid too. Interesting.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
It’s also interesting that the only course Pringle taught was on leadership (business model, not ‘shepherd’ model).
While we’re having this discussion about ‘qualifications’ why don’t you reveal yours? #andybotwin@houseofgrowth.
“Wait, you people have qualifications? What kind of qualifications? And who are you accountable to?”
I wonder if you have any “qualifications” yourself, Andrew – after all, someone who is unaware that sentences should not end with a preposition hardly comes across as an intellectual giant, do they?
I think what you *meant* to ask was “To whom are you accountable?”
We know that fake doctorates are rife within the pentecostal mega-cults – For example, Phil Pringle has one, Kong Hee has one, even Jill Sweetman, the wife of one of Phil’s fumbling junior flunkies, has one. These individuals are all faux intellectuals, Andrew – they tout false academic credentials because they could never hope to aspire to the real thing, given that they are of average intelligence, at best. In fact, it’s difficult to find anyone who is involved with these cults who is particularly clever Andrew, and that is something that we have seen on this web site time after time, as we find ourselves corresponding with C3 apologists who are nothing but pathetic dupes: dullards who invariably present as suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect (having become, as it is written, just like their teachers).
The people who run mega cults are morons, Andrew, and the people who blindly follow them are even bigger morons. When I referred to Nicole Louise as being “not particularly bright”, I was understating the facts out of kindness. Now that you have sprung to Nicole’s defence, we can see that you are hewn from the same rock – and you, whose ignorance of basic English is on display here for all to see, have the bare-faced cheek to interrogate the Churchwatchers as to their qualifications, as though you have some God-given mandate to just waltz onto this blog and set yourself up, in your arrogance and presumptuousness, as an academic plumb-line. But I tell you what, Andrew – since you’ve asked, I’ll give you a tip that will narrow things down for you: the Churchwatchers are most certainly not accountable to *you*. There, does that help?
It would appear to a casual observer that Andrew’s ‘innocent’ (nefarious) intentions would be to put name(s) face(s) to the Churchwatcher id.
“It would appear to a casual observer that Andrew’s ‘innocent’ (nefarious) intentions would be to put name(s) face(s) to the Churchwatcher id.”
That could be. Isn’t a shame that the C3 apologists that we encounter on this site constitute nothing more than an endless procession of unremittingly ham-fisted incompetents with drool-cup IQs – people whose powers of expression are conspicuous by their absence, and who are unacquainted with God and stunningly ignorant of Scripture. I wonder if Phil Pringle thinks that any of these individuals are stand-out examples of people who are “living their best lives” (I guess it could be worse for them, of course: Kong Hee was personally discipled by Phil, and look how things have worked out for him). In any case, crossing swords with individuals like Andrew is like going big game fishing and finding nothing but minnows.
Needless to say, if Andrew *is* digging for information with a certain agenda in mind, he is hardly doing a bang-up job. Perhaps he could get some pointers from the C3 movement’s doyen of counter-intelligence, the inimitable Mark “Sheepdog” Saundercock. Unfortunately, Mark’s track record is hardly anything to write home about, his reputation as C3OF’s enforcer notwithstanding – it seems that his comfort zone extends only as far as the fence around the Oxford Falls “campus”, and not one centimetre further. I guess Andrew is stuck with no alternative but to follow the lead of his fellow travellers who have gone here before him – he’ll just have to tuck his tail between his legs and slink quietly away, and pretend that he never commented here.
@nicloelouise: If a righteous person turns from his righteousness and commits injustice, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die.'”
Well, phil and kong won’t last long will they?
And the stumbling block is? I don’t see it. In fact i see quite the contrary. I see a Church, a movement, a people who grow from strength to strength to strength!
However my friend, this place here, is your stumbling block. And so where is your truth
“However my friend, this place here, is your stumbling block. And so where is your truth”.
Can I suggest that this site has helped REMOVE stumbling blocks that many churches have put in the way of Christians; churches that say you’re cursed if you don’t tithe, a mediocre Christian if you don’t give “over and above”, where misleading doctrine is taught, where leadership is unapproachable….I could go on.
“I see a Church, a movement, a people who grow from strength to strength to strength!”
– Have you looked at this movement from the outside in, or only inside in? That’s how I looked for a long time – until I stepped outside.
“C3 apologists that we encounter on this site constitute nothing more than an endless procession of unremittingly ham-fisted incompetents with drool-cup IQs – people whose powers of expression are conspicuous by their absence, and who are unacquainted with God and stunningly ignorant of Scripture.”
You forgot to add “Kool Aid distributors…”
Wow! An amazing use of the English language. All those words yet nothing useful to actually contribute. I’m sorry. What did you say your IQ was.
And for the record: your very Churchwatch feels threatened by me and have threatened to have me removed from WordPress altogether.
Tell me, why do they feel threatened by one voice? Is it because the truth is far reaching to those who will hear
We’re not threatened by you. You parrot the same brainwashed mantras and worldly philosophies that these cults have pushed on Christianity for years.
It concerns us that so many Christians like yourself have been brainwashed by these liars. The only way to see through those lies is by studying the bible for yourself and not reading it through through their secular lens.
Start reading Matthew 6-7 in context. Let the context speak for itself. Is Jesus teaching you to judge or not judge? Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
My friend, it is God Himself who teaches me. Not man, nor Pastor. I ‘parrot’ what the LORD shows me.
Have you even read Matthew 6-7. I feel for you, i really do. It’s so sad to see a person eaten up with so much anger and hatred that not only do they feed it to others, but they feed off others.
Ahhh, see now, here I am. For i checked myself and seen my error. For Pastors have taught me some things. But they are of a Different nature and so you would not comprehend. For you dwell only in what you see
So you have some ‘higher knowledge’ we lesser mortals are not privy to, Nicolelouise1?
Do I sense ‘gnosticism’ raising its ugly head?
Romans 16:17……..watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
Oh my Gosh! Again! God gives testimony against you through the very scripture you choose to advertise yourself. You see the keywords in this verse Churchwatch are not the ones you have highlighted, the keywords are: ‘that you have been taught’.
So it comes to pass that you testify against yourself. For It is you who cause divisions and create obstacles and so it is you to whom Paul cautions us to ‘watch out for’ and ‘avoid’. And so it seems it is you who changes scripture to suit your own intentions and the desires of your heart. And still God is giving you the chance to turn back from this path you are on. Repent!
“that you have been taught”
– yep, that I’m cursed or bad things are gonna happen to me if I don’t tithe?
Should we apologise to Phil Pringle, bow down at his feet, and promise to pay him all our “back-tithes” with compounded interest?
Funny that at c3 we were taught to “pay” your tithe, not give it…..
I doubt very much you have been taught this. And if by chance you have, I am so sorry you have allowed it to affect you to such a degree that you would seek solace in such a place as this.
To my knowledge, all who give, give out of a willing heart. Exodus 35:5
I guess your heart was never willing
“I doubt very much you have been taught this.”
What is the gospel Nicole? Tell us. People who defend cults often have difficulty telling us what Christianity is. We very much doubt that you have been taught the gospel considering you are happily defending a cult that desecrates Christ and his ministry.
Wow! That is a big accusation. Tell me, exactly how does this cult desecrate Christ? Come now. Surely you know. After all, do you not frequent this “cult” quite often!
Haven’t you seen C3 lie in Jesus name? Haven’t you seen C3 falsely prophesy in Jesus name? Teach false things in Jesus name? Manipulate people in Jesus name? Rip people off financially in Jesus name? Haven’t you seen them operate immorally in Jesus name? Haven’t you seen the scandals they are involved in?
Some of us attend local churches and do evangelism. Are you aware how many people hate Christ and His church because of the wickedness at C3? Do you know how many people want the C3 cult monitored by the government because they do not like such a global cult in their backyard?
If you do not think that this is what desecration looks like, God help you.
“I doubt very much you have been taught this.”
And on what basis would you have such doubts? Obviously you have never listened to any of the “sermons” at C3, nor have you read any of Phil Pringle’s ramblings (none of his poorly-written nonsense would qualify as books).
“To my knowledge, all who give, give out of a willing heart.”
Well you don’t know much, do you? According to Phil Pringle: those who neglect to “tithe” are “under a curse”, and they are “robbing God”. That is to say, Phil Pringle maintains that Christians are *compelled* to tithe.
If you cared to know the truth of the matter, you could find out all you need to know with no more than one hour of research, but it’s clear that you are not interested in the truth.
“I guess your heart was never willing”
You’ve given your own answer! After a while I realised my heart wasn’t willing – I was giving out of FEAR that I would be cursed if I didn’t tithe. Funny I was getting preached that at c3.
I know this. And i am happy you see it. The fear is yours my friend: to hold on to, or to toss aside. You are not cursed, nor will you be unless you believe it to be true. Do you see what i am saying. Jesus loves you. And His Love far outweighs anything – period!
You don’t need this place. You need healing. You need Jesus. Find yourself a Church and stay there.
But remember this:
When you eat a chicken drumstick you chew the meat and spit out the bones. Don’t try to chew the bones, they’re not meAnt for eating.
This can be applied to your whole life.
“When you eat a chicken drumstick you chew the meat and spit out the bones. Don’t try to chew the bones, they’re not meAnt for eating. ”
In other words – go to a Hillsong or C3 that preaches half truth’s and try to swallow the coolaid without the cyanide. You are DIRECTLY opposing God’s Word where Jesus warns us to judge a tree (prophet) by it’s fruit. Why do you reject Jesus and His Apostles own warnings about these dangerous men? These are dangerous cults you are defending. Not the Christian church.
Our only fear is to see sincere Christians mislead into deception and to have these frauds rip them off blind (as we have seen happen). It would be loving of you if you did not twist the scriptures to defend these liars in the name of God.
“And His Love far outweighs anything – period!”
We believe this – but why preach this to us when you defend men who don’t?
According to Pringle – God’s love stops if you do not tithe. According to Hillsong and C3 – God love stops when you start questioning the teachings, gospel and visions of these men.
Their love is false, manipulative and evil. We preach the love of Christ according to the scriptures. It’s a shame that many Christians hold to the false teacher’s shallow, false love. This false love thumps any Christian who holds to true Christian love in the name of not judging. It’s a pagan, humanistic love. It’s anchored in idealism. And these churches control it’s members by playing with these false idealistic notions.
However, the Christian/Biblical love is a love that does judge, correct and hold brothers and sisters accountable.
It is true that we could probably be a bit more gentle in our tone. However, we are mainly seeing people who aren’t even Christian bully us and others into silence for the love of their false teachers. They are conditioned to think like irrational animals just like the false teachers they worship.
You would be wise to fear: fear God. He is the one that will be looking at those claiming to be Christian but defending the frauds in his name. True love starts with Him. And many people do not have a clue who or what love is.
Please – stick to the biblical love and stop hounding us with your worldly humanistic ideals of love. At least then we can see eye to eye on some issues then.
Mmm. That one was my own fault – for not being clear in what was meant. You see, tithing to me, is meat. But to this person it is bones. But only because the understanding of the concept is not there. For me personally, I Love God, I tithe because I love Him, no other reason. I never knew what Love was until I felt His Love wrap around me. And so I give because He gave His Love to me. He rescued me. He lifted me up out of misery and set His Hand upon me. So I give. And I give freely.
You don’t just walk into Church and ‘get it’. Everyone is on thier own journey with God – it’s personal. You have to chew the meat – what gives life to your Spirit. And spit out the bones – what you don’t understand. If we hold on to what we don’t understand it eats away at us. Causes anger and the likes of such. Isaiah 28:10 says for precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.
There will come a time when squidaloopa will understand tithing. And will grasp it willingly with both hands and heart.
Seriously, Nicolelouise1? Mixing biblical truths with false doctrines so as to satisfy “itching ears” – and giving approval to wolves in the pulpit?
1 Corinthians 5:6 “Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough?”
If the “meat” is contaminated, do you really think “spitting out the bones” will make any difference?
The only approval I seek friend, comes from above. Is this not what you have done! Have you not (and do you not encourage others to go and do the same) gone out and found for yourself ‘teachers’ to suit your need, that which you long to hear, hmmm your ‘itching ears’. Have you even read 1 Corinthians Chapter 5. Because once again, you twist scripture and take it out of context.
But Let the one who boasts boast in the LORD. – 2 Corinthians 10:17
Oh look, it says it again in 1 Corinthians. And look-again in Jeremiah. Wow! It must be a thing hey. God must like it when we boast in Him.
And so boast in the LORD I most definitely will my friend.
You really should read 1 Corinthians 5 you know.
Everything you do here, every scripture you take out of context, points only to your self and what you create and feed here. You have nothing but anger, and strife, and malice, envy and greed, with which to substantiate any claim you make. Your very words echo out and come back against you.
You are not threatened by me. Then why are you quick to reply when i speak to others. You won’t let them speak for themselves for fear they see the truth in what I speak and turn away from this place. Instead you jump in with a whole lot of jargon. You confuse them with your anger and your lack of understanding. You fear them finding peace and healing. You fear them leaving this place for then you have nothing with which to feed from.
I did not come here for you. For your ‘fruit’ is clearly seen. I came here because there are people here who belong to God and should not be in this place.
Let me tell you now what I should have told you from the beginning: God holds you accountable for every single soul of His you keep in this place.
Nicoleloiuise1 – Ever heard the expression “blue sleeps faster than Wednesday”? Look it up….
“You have nothing but anger, and strife, and malice, envy and greed, with which to substantiate any claim you make.”
Really Louise? Malice? Envy? Greed? Proof please.
“God holds you accountable for every single soul of His you keep in this place.”
Which is why this place exists – to call people out of the dangerous Hillsong, C3, CHC and YFGC cults. The leaders of these cults tick the characteristics of those God calls “wicked”. For instance, we have documented that Brian Houston, Phil Pringle, Kong Hee and David Yonggi Cho are swindlers, slanderers, immoral and idolaters. You would be wise to cast these wicked people out in the name of God before their leaven corrupts more people. This is your biblical duty. To defend them is to rebel against God and join them in their wickedness. Why do you not see this? Why do you put these men above Christ and His gospel? What do you hope to achieve?
1 Corinthians 5:
“It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
Nicolelouise1 – Squidaloopa and others here understand tithing very well. We know about the Old Testament tithe requirements (there was more than one tithe by the way).
We also know that as New Testament believers, we are no longer commanded to keep the OT tithe. Your decision to “tithe” is commendable if your giving is done cheerfully, knowing you are no longer under law but under grace.
“Under the conditional covenant of the Old Testament tithing was a necessity. It is not a command in the New Testament, it is a principle — we give out of love, from the heart because we are under a new unconditional covenant not the Old Testament law.” http://www.letusreason.org/wf34.htm
2 Corinthians 9:7 “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver”
“When you eat a chicken drumstick you chew the meat and spit out the bones. Don’t try to chew the bones, they’re not meAnt for eating”
I went to school with a bloke who would eat the meat, AND the bones. He would offer them to me at the bus stop. He also wanted to go skydiving naked.
As for the meat/bones, I wish many more Christians would use your wisdom and apply it their lives; if they did, many churches would lose people, who were able to “test everything”.
Kenny Abrams said:
“You see, tithing to me, is meat.”
If a False Teaching is your “meat”, then you have missed the whole point of the N.T.
Nicolelouise1, whilst you are watching for those who cause divisions…guess who said this: “Suppose you that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.”
Hint: Your Lord and Saviour. 2nd hint:Luke12:51.
Wow! I am shocked once again to see a scripture twisted to justify one’s actions.
If you are going to quote the Bible, do so in context.
All I can offer you is this my friend:
Mark 12:31: the second is: Love your neighbour as yourself. There is no other command greater than these.
Mark 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in Heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
And last but not least: Jesus said “if you love me you will keep my commands”
People with a lot of stake(especially those in power or are beneficiary of misleading direction or information etc) usually get very uncomfortable when the matter in exposure is true or very close to the truth.
Watch the link below. Better still, do a case study on her(watch all her videos and judge for yourself). She is not alone. Personally, I have known of MANY Christians who are ruined by its teachings. You can’t blame her because if you take Christian teachings to its logical conclusion, you could possibly end up like her.
We need to ask whether its teachings are good for society/world in the long term.
Profit Phil make a statement:
” There is good nes and bad news
The good news is we have enough money to build a mega stadium church……..
The bad news is that it is still in your pocket on on your credit card………
@Andrew: “I’m a walking encyclopaedia on this topic.”
“so I’m not going to pass judgement either way.”
So…..you are an ‘encyclopedia’ but you can’t make a choice based all your ‘encyclopaedic’knowledge?
What use is the knowledge if you can’t use it?
LOL – Andrew sounds a lot like a C3 “pastor”: ever learning, but never able to acknowledge the truth.
john john said:
I think we can even leave off that “ever learning” part as well…
Andrew and his C3/CHC family aren’t even at the “learning” stage yet.