Tags
AMAC, CHC, chc church, City Harvest Church, courts, Firna, kong, Ms Ho, Sun Ho, xtron, Xtron Productions
The Straits Times reports,
Returns from ‘sham bonds’ paid for from City Harvest Church funds: Prosecution
The returns from what are allegedly sham bonds that City Harvest Church invested in was repaid with money from the church, the prosecution tried to prove in court on Thursday during the trial against founder Kong Hee and five of his deputies.
The prosecution produced emails between several of the accused to show the “flow of funds” between the church’s investment management firm AMAC Capital Partners and glassware manufacturer Firna, which had issued $11 million worth of bonds invested in by the church. AMAC is run by Chew Eng Han, one of the accused, and Firna is owned by long-time church member Wahju Hanafi.
In an email between Mr Hanafi and Chew and another accused Serina Wee, set out the timeline for money transfers from AMAC to Firna so Firna could repay the church’s bond investments. When asked on the witness stand whether the AMAC-Firna timeline was followed, Mr Hanafi replied “I think almost there” but he added that the plan had come from the accused and he had not asked why they needed it done.
Mr Hanafi also did not know where AMAC had received the money it gave to Firna. The prosecution has been trying to show that Firna, AMAC and another company, music production firm Xtron Productions, were all used to illegally channel church funds to Kong’ wife Ho Yeow Sun’s pop music career. The six accused were charged last year with misusing about $50 million in total to finance Ms Ho’s career and to cover this up.
Source: Feng Zengkun, Straits Times, Returns from ‘sham bonds’ paid for from City Harvest Church funds: Prosecution, http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-story/chc-funds-case/story/returns-sham-bonds-paid-city-harvest-church-funds-prosecution-201, 05/09/2013. (Accessed 07/09/2013.)
C3 Church Watch 
“Unlike other aspiring singers from abroad who hope to make it in the US, Ho has the means […] to hop over the Pacific and base herself there while waiting for success to happen.”
“Means” that were provided by Kong Hee dipping into the CHC building fund, as he himself has admitted in court.
Yep, Sun was really fortunate to have such a weak husband whom she could easily manipulate in order to fulfil her dreams of living the high life and carrying on like a star, even if it didn’t last for very long.
It’s ironic that Kong is now belatedly discovering just how true it is that we reap what we sow. I wonder if he thinks, in hindsight, that it was worth it – and, if he had his time over, whether he would change anything he has done.
I don’t know how Sun is escaping all this.
As a friend said to me – “You always get caught out.”
“round tripping” explained.
http://limpehft.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/q-what-is-round-tripping.html
“Round-tripping” revisited with embedded youtube video.
Sometimes it is referred to as “teeming and lading”
http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/lift-vlog-episode-11-round-tripping.html
I did not see a blog post on the vicious hacking of Sun’s web site. The accusations include false Facebook posts citing fake church members speaking out about the church’s fund raising.
In the interest of fairness, c3churchwatch should report this incident seeing that nearly every aspect of Kong & Sun and CHC are being blogged almost on a daily basis.
A link is here if you missed it.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/kong-hees-wife-sun-hos-website-hacked-by-anonymous-allegations-flood-facebook-city-harvest-confessions-page-103784/
Dean
Hi Dean,
Why do you want us to glorify hackjobs? We too would call it “particularly malicious” and “hateful.” There are more effective ways to communicate what Kong Hee and Sun Ho are doing wrong. What that person did was hurtful on a more personal level in the ‘market place’.
We previously discussed if your above article should be put up but felt uneasy about it. Those articles accomplish nothing except promote the hacktivist. We do not want to promote the hacktivist. We are pretty sure our good Lord would not want us to promote abusive behaviour like hacking personal websites.
Not asking you to glorify anything just report that hackers and fraudulent Facebook posts could color people’s opinion of the facts. This would be fair, balanced and honest reporting of the situation.
“In the interest of fairness, c3churchwatch should report this [web site hacking] incident […]”.
Actually, it is the case that, in the interests of fairness:
(1) Kong Hee should not have stolen money from the CHC building fund to allow his wife to live in the lap of luxury.
(2) Kong should not have given CHC’s money to Sun Ho so that she could live in a Hollywood mansion that she rented for US$20,000 per month.
(3) Kong should not have misappropriated funds to ensure that Sun Ho could be fussed and fawned over by a retinue of CHC flunkies.
(4) Kong should not have spent years lying about the matter by claiming that no CHC funds were being channelled into underwriting Sun’s miserable failure of a career.
(5) Kong should not now be trying to justify his past actions, which clearly constituted unconscionable conduct of the highest order; namely the utterly shameless betrayal of his own loyal congregation – including the most vulnerable such as the young and the unemployed – all of whom he manipulated and exploited for the personal financial gain of himself and his wife.
You speak of “balanced reporting” as though there is some doubt as to what exactly transpired, but it is a matter of public record that Kong has already admitted, in court, that he took money from the CHC building fund and gave it to Sun Ho. Not only that, but even after he has been forced to tell the truth, he steadfastly refuses to admit that he has done anything wrong – his conscience has clearly been seared – and his wife, who was the greedy beneficiary of his criminal acts, has thus far not been called to account by the law.
Tell me this Dean: if you had given years of your life and thousands of your dollars to an unrepentant scammer and his profligate partner in crime, wouldn’t you be angry about it? Wouldn’t you be furious at having been consistently lied to, of being played for a complete fool, of being so thoroughly duped by a lying wolf?
“[…] hackers and fraudulent Facebook posts could colo[u]r people’s opinion of the facts”.
I would have thought, Dean, that since you are a pastor, you of all people would have understood what is really important here, and it is most definitely not “the opinions of people” – it is what God thinks about this matter. And anyone who has read their Bible can tell you what God’s view is regarding those who set their sights on the rewards of this world, who twist God’s words for their own ends, who make a mockery of the Gospel, and who lie and cheat and steal in God’s name.
The sad truth is that although Kong may be in strife with the legal authorities in Singapore, that is nothing compared with what he will be faced with when he is forced to give an account of himself to Him who judges heaven and earth. I am truly amazed that you don’t seem to have the slightest comprehension of the true gravity of this situation.
The bible warns us very strongly about false teachers. Ive never heard this being preached at c3 or any pentecostal church they strongly focus on submit and dont judge and if you question you are seen as rebellious sinful and someone to be avoided. That ís totally unbiblical. 3 Timothy warns us Remember that there will be difficult times in the last days. People will be selfish, greedy, boastful and conceited ……. they will hold to the outward form of our religion, but reject its real power.
You are factually wrong. “At C3 or any other Pentecostal church” is a sweeping generalization and incorrect. I have taught in C3 congregations to to beware of false teachers. I have also taught on to submission to authority and not judging others also.
No one is deterred from asking questions of C3 pastors to my knowledge. We welcome feed back and comment.
By the way there is no book in the bible called 3 Timothy. The passage I think you are referring to is,
2 Timothy 2
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
In my humble opinion c3churchwatch is violating verses 14, 16, 17, 23, 24, 26. But that is a discussion for another day.
2 Peter 2 is another pertinate passage.
2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
False teachers consistently are sexually immoral and use the pulpit to store up wealth for them selves as verses 2-3 indicate.
You have no evidence of either and therefore your opinion of Kong He or Phil Pringle for that matter as false teachers, is baseless an all counts.
What ever is to come of the Kong He trial will remain to be seen. Until then we should all wait to cast judgment, pray for Kong and Sun and CHC and take it from there.
“[…] [Annette’s] opinion of Kong He or Phil Pringle for that matter as false teachers, is baseless an all counts.”
Incorrect.
Both Kong Hee and Phil Pringle are false teachers, something is clearly evident by virtue of the fact that they both deliberately twist Scripture to teach things that are demonstrably untrue.
Zorro, (probably not your real name. Not sure why you guys want to hide behind a fictitious blog handle)
You opinion as to whether Phil Pringle and Kong He are false teachers is based on your interpretation of scripture I guess. On the main doctrines of the Christian faith they most certainly orthodox.
Your main contention seems to be a position on teaching Gods blessing, sowing & reaping, tithing, offerings, building funds, and anything else that pastors do to in the realm of money.
I disagree with your position you disagree with mine. That’s ok but to label them a false teachers does not stand up to credibility in light of the statements of faith and over 30 years of teaching about Salvation, Baptism, Sin, Grace, Justification, Sanctification, the Bible as the infallible word of God, the Trinity, I could go on.
With the exception of Charismatic theology, we would not differ that much. And our position on that is the now mainstream view and accepted across most denominational structures.
There is nothing false about the teaching of Phil Pringle or Kong He. Just because you say it over and over does not make it so.
I look forward to more debate with a real person who has the courage to enter such debate with their real name. Its easy, you sign in with Facebook.
@Dean – there have some sermon reviews done on c3 pastors are very revealing as to their ability to rightly handle God’s Word. Sadly a rather nice Mark Kelsey falls under that category – a pity because he really is a lovely man. Here is just one of two done (and there are other pastors reviewed)….
http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2012/02/do-muslims-christians-believe-in-the-same-god.html
Usually found about an hour into the broadcast.
“That’s ok but to label them a false teachers does not stand up to credibility in light of the statements of faith and over 30 years of teaching about Salvation, Baptism, Sin, Grace, Justification, Sanctification, the Bible as the infallible word of God, the Trinity, I could go on.”
Please. Go on. Is it possible to be cursed by God if a Christian has received “Salvation, Baptism, Sin, Grace, Justification, Sanctification”?
“With the exception of Charismatic theology…”
Would a Charismatic theologian like yourself believe that it possible to be cursed by God if a Christian has received “Salvation, Baptism, Sin, Grace, Justification, Sanctification”?
“And our position on that is the now mainstream view and accepted across most denominational structures.”
Would you like to add anything else to this statement?
“Just because you say it over and over does not make it so.”
Why not? Would you like to restate that?
“I look forward to more debate with a real person who has the courage to enter such debate with their real name.”
Thank you Dean for engaging with members on C3 Church Watch. We look forward to you answering our questions.
(Sorry lost my iphone this dodgy phone will only do short comments, heres the rest) keep away from such people….. Everyone who wants to live a godly life in union with Christ Jesus will be persecuted; and evil persons and imposters will keep on going from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived themselves. Looked up the word imposters – a person who pretends to be someone else in order to deceive others esp for fraudulent gain!!!!!
Ramblings of an enabler?
CITY HARVEST CHURCH CASE : I don’t care how CHC spends money
Published Today at 01:47 (12 Sept) Business Times
By MICHELLE QUAH MICHQUAH@SPH.COM.SG
[SINGAPORE] Indonesian businessman and City Harvest Church (CHC) member Wahju Hanafi said yesterday that he doesn’t know, and doesn’t want to know, how the church spends his or other people’s donations, to avoid being “disappointed”.
He also gave an entirely different explanation, from the two he tendered earlier, as to why the church was in a hurry to redeem $11.5 million in bonds that his company, The First National Glassware (Firna), had issued to Xtron Productions.
Mr Hanafi, who is into his second week on the stand, likened the church’s spending of donations to “kids (being) given money by their father”. “They will use it very easily, unlike me, as a parent, who makes the money, every dollar, every penny of it,” he told the court yesterday.
“They (the CHC pastors) might go on . . . whatever class of airfare they go on. I don’t care. I mean, I still go on economy class. I don’t care what the pastors or the church use because, otherwise, we will be disappointed, and then we might not receive the teaching from the pastors, because we already have this disappointment in our hearts.”
He added that the way CHC approaches the spending of money would be different from his, as its purpose is to “win souls”.
“(The church spends on) buying gifts for all the children . . . I remember my kids always come back with something . . . at the end of the day, they (the church) attract a lot of young people . . . my kids were begging us to (take them to) church every Sunday, because they know they will get something.
“The church is really using the money to bless and to win souls . . . it’s like a package . . . we used to go to the kopitiam for a coffee, but today we are willing to pay $500-600 to go to Starbucks, just because they have Internet, good surroundings, and all that. We try to make our church like a whole package,” he said.
He was then told off by Deputy Public Prosecutor Tan Kiat Pheng, for straying from the focus of the question: “I (gave) you the opportunity to explain. But you must stay focused, listen to the question and answer the question. Not ramble on and on to achieve whatever agenda you have.”
Later in the day, DPP Tan again said he felt Mr Hanafi was not paying attention to his questions: “Please, if you don’t want to stay here longer, you had better focus.”
Mr Hanafi: “I’m being paid to stay here. If you want to spend more government money, that is your choice.”
“As long as it takes for us to get the truth out of you,” DPP Tan retorted.
DPP Tan also brought to Mr Hanafi’s attention that he had given the court two different explanations for why CHC wanted to redeem the $11.5 million in bonds that Firna had issued to Xtron, which had managed Sun Ho’s career, in December 2009.
Mr Hanafi had testified last week that the church was keen to unravel the bond issue ahead of time because it had received a threat from an anonymous person in March 2010 “to open up all our connection with Xtron and Sun (Ho’s music) project, etc”.
The next day, he agreed with Senior Counsel N Sreenivasan when the latter said that his client, CHC deputy senior pastor Tan Ye Peng, had told him that CHC was in a hurry to get the bonds redeemed because it wanted to buy an interest in Suntec City. To fund that acquisition, CHC needed to get back the advance rental from Xtron, and Xtron (to pay back that rental) had to get back the money it lent to Firna for the bond issue.
“Which version is the right version regarding the redemption of the Xtron Firna bond?” DPP Tan asked.
“Well, there’s only one version from me,” Mr Hanafi said. “After (news of) our case (the six CHC members charged in court) came out, I felt I can borrow the money from the bank (borrow commercially), and I rather replace all that money with the loan from the bank – to prove to the authorities that I don’t have to rely on the money of the church or Xtron or whatever it is.”
“You are giving a third version now,” DPP Tan said.
“There’s only one version . . . That I redeemed the bond because I wanted to pay back and I can afford to borrow from the bank.”
“Then why didn’t you wait for (the bond) to mature before you paid back? Why didn’t you tell this court (earlier) that you want to show your muscle?” DPP Tan pressed.
“Well, I was not asked if I wanted to show my muscle, so I didn’t answer that,” Mr Hanafi replied.
The defence, in its cross-examination earlier in the day, tried to show that its clients were not involved in the relevant transactions. Mr Hanafi, under questioning by Edwin Tong, who represents CHC pastor Kong Hee, said Kong was not involved in the financing arrangements for Xtron or in any of the drawdowns of the bond issues. Under questioning by SC Andre Maniam, who represents ex-CHC finance manager Serina Wee, Mr Hanafi testified that Wee was not involved in Xtron’s financing arrangements and that her involvement was mainly administrative.
This reply is for Dean Sweetman. I must rephrase my comment – i have never heard any preaching on warning about false preachers at C3 Oxford Falls or Christian City Church Brookvale when i attending for a period of approx 15 years or any other pentecostal church that i have attended. The culture at C3 and CCC when i attended was very controlling and strong on submission and the focus on money esp just before i left had become absolutely ridiculous and shameful. You can disagree all you like but
you can disagree all you like but i am not a liar and spent long enough there to know. Of course you cant agree with me otherwise phil pringle will deal with you in a similar manner that he treated Pastor Phil Taylor. Very unhealthy organisation.
Annette, sorry for your experience. Hopefully there were some positive things that happened over your years at C3.
I can only tell you your experience is not mine and i have in no way felt controlled in any way in the 32 years I have been a member of C3 Church.
I don’t know all the details regarding Phil Taylor so I can’t comment.
To your point about our health, we continue to grow and learn from our past experiences and are seeing more people make meaningful decisions to follow Christ than any time in our short history. No church is perfect because no person is even close to perfect.
Hope you have found a church family that meets your needs.
Well Dean. You’re a “teacher” as well as a C3 “pastor”. Heed Jesus’ words to the teachers of his day.
“Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn’t leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost…” Luke 15:3
Phil Taylor is not hard to find on the web. How about fulfilling your biblical duty and follow him up?
https://www.facebook.com/philip.t.taylor
a very evasive answer which is what i expected
Watch, thank you for your uninformed and unsolicited opinion.
Dean
“Watch, thank you for your uninformed and unsolicited opinion.”
Clearly we are still getting in the way of God’s Word since all you can see is our “opinion”. Hope you can hear Jesus this time:
“Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn’t leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost…” Luke 15:3
Watch, can you fill me in on your pastoral care experience, staff management experience, small business experience, formal biblical studies, building construction experience, primary & high school management experience and any ordination from a recognized church group?
Answers to the above would go to the credibility of your questions regarding these matters.
If we had more experience than you or less, so what? Why don’t you address the substance of our claims?
Dean, churchwatcher is a shared account.
The reason why people behind this account are not disclosing their names or credentials is because of the cult-like tactics C3 employs to destroy their critics reputation and lives. We’re not saying you specifically do this Dean. However the nature of the beast you are apart of shows no mercy to people who question it.
If we had more experience than you or less, so what? Why don’t you address the substance of our claims?
Dean, churchwatcher is a shared account.
The reason why people behind this account are not disclosing their names or credentials is because of the cult-like tactics C3 employs to destroy their critics reputation and lives. We’re not saying you specifically do this Dean. However the nature of the beast you are apart of shows no mercy to people who question it.
Please!! You’ve got to be joking. C3 employs no “cult-like tactics”. Never has never will. Your hatred of C3 and Phil Pringle boarders on paranoid and delusional.
Many of your biblical positions are the same as ours. As I have stated before, C3 Church is quiet conservative and very orthodox in its theology. We have actually agreed on this in earlier posts.
You are the one accusing recognized global church leaders of being “false teachers”. You lost me and any other sane person when you attacked Rick Warren. You are so in the minority I find it hard to think you actually believe this.
“[…] can you fill me in on your pastoral care experience, staff management experience, small business experience, formal biblical studies, building construction experience, primary & high school management experience and any ordination from a recognized church group?”
Hey Dean, can you let us know which “recognized church group” ordained Phil Pringle or Kong Hee? I don’t think you can, because they are both self-appointed nobodies.
“[…] small business experience […]”
Interesting. I thought that Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth – have I been labouring under a misapprehension for all these years? Should I have been spending every spare moment at the local chamber of commerce so that I could go on to mature in Christ?
And are you going to tell us, Dean, that Kong Hee has “business experience”? Isn’t it true that he set up a business selling AV gear, and that he subsequently flogged his wares to CHC at vastly inflated margins without disclosing his conflict of interest in the matter? Do you consider such conduct to be Godly, Dean? Would you yourself do such a thing? If not, why do you endorse someone who has?
“[…] formal biblical studies […]”
Well Dean, it’s quite clear that you have no experience as a boxer, isn’t it? Here’s a tip for you: never, ever lead with your jaw. You talk of “formal biblical studies”, and, laughably, both Hee and Pringle have fake PhDs from a diploma mill in the U.S. Naturally enough, no one apart from impressionable dolts is impressed by those who engage in academic fraud, and Kong and Pringle have actually comprehensively eroded whatever credibility they may have otherwise had by touting false academic credentials. And talking of fraud, you do know, don’t you, that Kong Hee has been caught out plagiarising?
“[…] staff management experience […]”
Yep, you must be right: Jesus didn’t say “feed my sheep”, he *actually* said “make sure that you roster your workers fairly and be sure to keep up to date with the conditions of the various relevant awards”.
You don’t know much about God or the Bible, do you Dean? I would say that it’s *you* who has a distinct problem with a lack of credibility.
“You lost me and any other sane person when you attacked Rick Warren.”
And why would that be, Dean? Is Rick your pentecostal pope or something? Is he infallible and beyond reproach? Is he God come in the flesh? Is it because he has a big church? Because he has a big following? Because he has sold lots of books?
Is Rick superior to Jesus, Dean? Is he wiser or more powerful than the Holy Spirit?
“You are so in the minority I find it hard to think you actually believe this.”
So Dean, have you read your Bible? There are these two gates: there is a broad gate and there is a narrow gate. The broad gate leads to destruction, and the narrow gate leads to life.
Could you tell us please, Dean: which gate did Jesus say the majority of people will go through? You call yourself a “pastor”, but your claim to be correct about Warren simply because you are part of some alleged “majority” highlights your rank spiritual ignorance. The truth of the matter is that the majority of people are wrong, Dean, and the fact that you are oblivious to such a basic spiritual principle would indicate that you are simply not in a position to venture any opinion about God or the things of God. You could, however, go and talk to the people in the world about your precious “majority”, because it is those in the world who seek comfort and affirmation in numbers – those of us who belong to God are satisfied to settle for His truth.
Looks like Dean is the only one who is informed of ALL the facts. There have been a lot of lost sheep along the journey of c3 – I am one of them. In fact, I wasn’t lost, I was cast aside when I was no longer useful. When I picture c3, I don’t imagine sheep in a pasture being cared for by a shepherd, what I see looks more like a slaughter house.
Fancy
Sorry Fancey, I didn’t say I had all the fact.
Yes people have left C3 over the years.
Your reference to a slaughter house is mean spirited and hateful and not in any way true. Easy to do anonymously on a blog.
@ Dean – I agree. At first reading Fancy’s comment does sound “mean spirited and hateful”. But it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not true from Fancy’s perspective?
Perhaps if Fancy would be willing to share his/her testimony?
Posting anonymously here is not something I like, but for the sake of those still attending, it’s better this way. And I would rather be known as being like the Bereans!
Unfortunately (and speaking from experience) those who leave C3, for biblically sound reasons, are treated rather like those who leave the Amish sect. Does the term “shunning” sound familiar? And why does this happen?
Why did Phil Pringle tell members of C3 Oxford Falls and City Harvest Church Singapore to not read blogs or listen to naysayers or believe what they read in the paper, particularly court documents regarding the trial? Does he honestly believe his adherents are incapable of discerning truth from error (if that’s the case)?
Getting back to Fancy’s comment about “slaughterhouse” – Dean, have you any idea how it feels to have those you love turn their backs on you, to see those same loved ones seemingly incapable of practicing discernment (because it’s obviously discouraged by Phil Pringle)?
Dean, you say you warn against false teachers. Who are those false teachers Dean? Modalist TD Jakes? Heretic Bill Johnson? Steven “mocks grace” Furtick? (“…if that doesn’t get you excited and you need the doctrines of grace as defined by John Calvin to excite you, you in the wrong church. Let me get a phone book. There are 720 churches in Charlotte. I am sure we can find one where you can stuff your face until you’re so obese spiritually that you can’t even move.”)
I’ve often said that I won’t call C3 a cult, but when you leave it can certainly feel like it at times – the loss of relationships, fellowship, and at the same time a sense of freedom, a lack of bondage to false teaching etc etc. I’ve researched the issue and can certainly relate.
http://carm.org/steven-furtick
http://carm.org/td-jakes
http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue124.htm (Bill Johnson)
Dean, this wasn’t a mean spirited or hateful comment, it is as Berean states “simply my perspective”. When I look back on the whole experience, that is what I see. You don’t have the perspective I have Dean, it may be good for you to listen to the perspective of others and learn.
“Many of your biblical positions are the same as ours.”
Don’t insult us. Christianity holds a very different biblical position to the C3 movement in the doctrines of faith, love, church and the gospel. The doctrines of the C3 movement are more akin to the teachings of occultism and the New Age movement.
“As I have stated before, C3 Church is quiet conservative and very orthodox in its theology… You are the one accusing recognized global church leaders of being “false teachers”.”
C3 Church is quite “conservative” and “very orthodox in its theology”? Try Satanic. You honestly worship Phil Pringle’s god?
https://c3churchwatch.com/2012/05/13/enough-said-pringle-reveals-all/
@ Dean – when are you going to stop falling for “it’s growing/people are making professions of faith, so it MUST be of God!” argument.
Unfortunately the Christian community is all too aware that there are false teachers/shepherds (as Christ warns about in these last days – and that warning has applied for the last 2000 years) misleading the sheep. And Christ, in His loving kindness is drawing them out.
Do you seriously assume that they are hearing the true gospel in the first place? Something which rarely occurs at “prosperity-gospel driven churches, though again Christ, in His loving kindness, seems to be allowing His elect to find it on their own since the word of God is efficacious. Then they leave….
They leave and find themselves in churches, albeit often quite small (not “campus”-driven) where the true gospel is preached.
Small churches that support missionaries in dangerous places, small churches that constantly seek His will in prayer and supplication and see such prayers answered, small churches where the pastor faithfully preaches verse by verse through the biblical text and allows questions after every service.
Small churches where the pastor knows everyone by name, drives himself around and mows his own lawn 🙂
Small churches where the pastor doesn’t tweet photos of his 1st class boarding pass.
Small churches where the pastor’s wife isn’t tweeting photos of herself lying around a pool attached to a $3.5 million house with ocean views, living her best life now.
Meanwhile in Syria, in Egypt, across the world, many believers are dying to receive their best life.
Kong Hee and Sun Ho have been “well-mentored” it seems.
Wow, so many false accusations by you I don’t know when to start.
Many of our churches are smaller (under 250). Our church in North Hollywood is one of them so yes I know personally of what you speak. God uses smaller churches and He uses larger churches. Not sure what your point is.
For the record, I buy coach most of the time and get upgraded by Delta and American Airlines because of the amount of miles I fly. No need to get snarky.
Are you jealous of someone else prospering? And before you rant on about Christian leaders living the “high life” you have no point of reference as to weather someone’s house is worth $1,000,000 or $10,000,000. What if they gave away 20% of their income? Or more.
We have a congregation in Egypt. Earlier this year some of us gave money so they could build a building for their services. The church was able to keep meeting because it had a building. Guess how it happened? We along with other C3 churches had money to make a considerable contribution and get it done. Guess how that happened? Because people were presented a need and gave willingly and not under compulsion.
We don’t broadcast much of what missions we are involved with around the world. Thousands of children are being fed. We are involved in rescuing child slaves in Cambodia. Plenty of sacrificial giving you or others will never hear about.
Hope you are able to do the same to the best of your ability.
@ Dean – you say “Are you jealous of someone else prospering? And before you rant on about Christian leaders living the “high life” you have no point of reference as to weather someone’s house is worth $1,000,000 or $10,000,000. What if they gave away 20% of their income? Or more.”
No, I’m not jealous of someone else prospering. We fly business, sometimes 1st class, have built million+ dollar homes. All this “blessing” on the back of very hard work.
Money not achieved through “love offerings”, circuit preaching (within a VERY limited circuit), selling artwork to a captive market, not profiting from advertising “product” from the pulpit/stage or at the “expo” after a conference.
History demonstrates that the faithful lay their lives, literally, for the gospel. History demonstrates that those who make merchandise of the “gospel” to the spiritually poor & needy are soon forgotten or have much written about their evil – Tetzel being a good example. What’s the difference between Tetzel selling indulgences and modern day preachers selling books on being purpose-driven rather than gospel-centred?
I’m all for giving generously, sacrificially if required and generally receive no material benefit. In fact, this fallen world being the way it is, the 100 fold back doesn’t happen.
Our expectation of “reward” is eternal.
Who needs 100 guitars anyway (that sound familiar?)
Dean,
I for one just wish you would address your handling of C3 Asheville!!!!
By what the word says in: 1 Timothy 3:2 “So an elder must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a GOOD REPUTATION. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach.” –you have clearly ignored God’s word and handled things how YOU wanted to. No argument there. Does a Pastor who had this http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20120420/NEWS/304200028/Bellamy-give-bank-fraud-player-s-donation-charity write up in the Citizen times(Asheville’s most popular newspaper) sound like he has a good reputation is community???
Don’t tell me things like “I don’t have all the facts” or “you don’t know the whole picture”. All of that is completely irrelevant. The church exists 1st to Glorify God and 2nd to lead people to Jesus and how can any church lead people to Jesus if the people in that town think the pastor is a crook????
These are the facts: 1 Timothy 3:2 clearly says an Elder should have a good reputation. No one in the community who reads that article is going to think well of Nick. Therefore Nick is unfit to be a pastor of a church in this community.
Here are some facts you will dispute as matters of “opinion”(known by 100’s of people who have dealt with Nick in Asheville and been completely screwed over in asheville, many former members of the church there you “oversee”) you will and can dispute:
-Nick has a HORRIBLE and I repeat HORRIBLE reputation in Asheville. Walk into any bank and mention his name. Walk in to the Rock church and mention his name. Walk into the supermarket and mention his name. He has a horrible(and well deserved reputation).
-The church in Asheville went from a group of wonderful people loving God and each other and growing(maybe 180 people or so) to what is now….Dean I’ll defer to you on this one how many people are left and still being deceived by Nick??? 40? 30? 20? You know better than me. I’m gone, THANK YOU JESUS(not joking seriously thanking you God!!!) for delivering me!!!! Are all of the people who have approached you and begged you to do something wrong??? Every single one??? Are they all not seeing this amazing hidden truth that you somehow seem to know about Nick that no one else does except you??? Every single person that has approached YOU DEAN telling you a stories of losing thousands or others losing thousands because of Nick, were they all liars???
-You Dean have not been on the ground in Asheville to see what happened since the church began to absolutely fall apart. I thought you were the overseer for North America???? A church’s attendance is plummeting, pastors are resigning, board members are stepping down and you can’t even make a visit???—exscuse me this is fact as of when I left you had not been for 1 not 1 single visit in at least a year since the articles started running!!!!!
-Nick started a building fund for a building he was leasing with no signed lease agreement for the church, the improvements were made and then the building was leveled to build a new Harris Teeter. I know of one business man who painted the entire building and was gone after this happened. Could this possibly be related? Does it matter to you?
– 2 boards have stepped down, 8 staff/pastors have left at least—excuse me once again another fact. Once again I guess these are all deceived people not in on your singular grip on the “truth”. Or they ALL aren’t seeing the whole picture…WHATEVER!!!!
-At least 2 of the other advisors/overseers you put on the ground recommended you remove Nick and yet he remains.
What am I not seeing here Dean??? If I’m not seeing the whole picture please tell me what it is? What am I not understanding about the fact that you let a convicted felon(plead guilty to using a straw borrower) who has at least 3 write ups in the local newspaper continue on as pastor of a church? In what other organization/denomination in the world would a convicted felon be allowed to continue on in a role as pastor of a church? Right after they have plead guilty?
Please address.
Signed,
a former member of C3 Asheville
who lost $35,000 in a deal with Nick(COMPLETELY SCREWED!!!!)-FACT!!!!
who wishes to remain anonymous(because I don’t want you or NICK to assassinate my character to the friends I still have in C3)
who is praying for You and and all the people still being deceived at C3 Asheville
who is still completely broken hearted over this situation
Hope you feel better now you’ve got that off your chest.
@Dean
Wow are you arrogant. Or are you afraid to admit the truth? Or are you now so blinded that you no longer even recognize the truth. Regardless, God have mercy on you for what you allowed to take place in Asheville. You are charged in scripture to take care of those in your churches. But you obviously care much more for your Hollywood jet setting lifestyle. Do you care about people at all anymore or do you only see more “givers”. You let a church “family” be torn to shreds and show no remorse and for what? I’m sorry I wasted my time. You are simply to far gone. May God lead you back to your first love.
@Dean Oh sorry I almost forgot to answer your question. Let me respond that’s what I try to do when asked a question because I have nothing to hide. No I don’t feel better! I don’t feel better at all I’m in recovery from being abused and tossed out like garbage from one of your cults I mean churches. I hope all the at mentions on twitter and pictures from your members during your sermons gushing about how great YOU are are enough for you. I hope you enjoy the birthday offerings you deserve it! You have received your reward in full, in all of its worldly, reeks of what caused Lucifer to fall putrid ness! Hope you enjoy getting the glory! You certainly seem to because you don’t stop it! There’s only room for one rockstar in church and I guess in your little realm that’s you! As for me and my house we will praise The Lord!
Moving on!
“Hope you feel better now you’ve got that off your chest.”
Dismissive, arrogant, a complete abdication of responsibility, and above all indicative of a conscious and deliberate betrayal of the people whose interests you should be defending, Dean.
You seek to cast aspersions on those posting here on the basis of their supposed lack of credibility, even as the attitude belied by your curt reply to David shows that you are not fit to much as sweep the floor in a church. If David’s claims are true, then you should apologise and address the problems he has enumerated forthwith; if not, then you should explain yourself.
Ironically enough, your I-don’t-care-what-are-you-going-to-do-about it? response is *exactly* the sort of high-handed and abusive put-down that one would expect from a hypocritical cult leader who cares nothing for either God’s truth or the welfare of God’s people, and it clearly gives the lie to your patently false assertion that ‘C3 employs no “cult-like tactics”‘.
You can do better than that Dean. I’ll give you props that you’re actually communicating with us all. The Asheville thing escapes me. If it’s just legal reasons you can’t say anything, tell us. From someone who works in the justice industry, I might be wrong but after you’ve pleaded or been found guilty, all that’s coming up is sentence. You’ve been found or pleaded on the facts. Sometimes when it comes time to sentencing, they will reveal to the court/jury previous history.
While I’m here I’ll say a few other things.
As for the anonymity here, I too would probably be identified by some. That’s not blowing hot air either.
From CW – “Please. Go on. Is it possible to be cursed by God if a Christian has received “Salvation, Baptism, Sin, Grace, Justification, Sanctification”?” in relation to Dean.
I have been told from the c3 pulpit that your money is cursed if you don’t tithe. Last time I checked the Bible we are under grace and not the law, which is where the curse of not tithing comes from. I don’t accept that as just different interpretation. If you wanna be under the law, go for it.
Believe it or not Dean, I do agree with sowing and reaping as that is something Jesus taught. But it is still taking me years to shake off the bad teaching of “giving to get”. I don’t give to get, as is often preached to do “if you want a financial breakthrough”. I don’t tithe. I stopped several years ago. It always stumped me anyway. I give when I occasionally attend the local c3, or any other church for that matter. Or the Salvation Army volunteer at the train station with his money box. But this teaching of “giving to get” has gotta stop. Jesus said that if you give you will receive. He didn’t say give TO receive.
Maybe Dean thinks Nick is OK because he has “credibility” by virtue of having some or all of “pastoral care experience, staff management experience, small business experience, formal biblical studies, building construction experience, primary & high school management experience […]”, which seem to constitute Dean’s criteria for establishing someone’s spiritual bona fides (although I must confess, I can’t for the life of me think of any Biblical passages that support such a position; maybe it’s the case that Dean’s say so is enough, and if one questions that, then they are negative, critical and bitter).
After all, Dean supports and lauds as a Godly leader the self-confessed thief and fraud Kong Hee, so why would he worry about such an inconsequential matter as having a know felon preaching from a C3 pulpit?
Berean, why on earth would someone still want to attend a church that they don’t feel happy in. Your point about people not using real names dose not make sense to me.
I acknowledge it is hard leaving a church because of differences. Friendships are a big part of church life. I along with pastors I know do everything we can to minimize these unfortunate situations. Not fun at all for either side.
You’re a Calvinist, I get it.
Thanks for not calling C3 a cult, my opinion of you and your some times sensible arguments would have changed.
I think I mentioned it in another post but you guys seem to have a big issue with anyone who teaches that God wants to bless His children. Yes, we are to learn to live in hardship also but to not understanding that prosperity and blessing are taught as well in scripture is to live in denial. By the way, the underlining theme of teaching sowing and reaping is to be a blessing and live generously. Not to store up riches just for yourself. That’s what I teach, Be blessed so you can be a blessing.
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.(Matthew 6:4)
Our Lord warned against hypocrisy and outward show in religious duties. What we do, must be done from an inward principle, that we may be approved of God, not that we may be praised of men. In these verses we are cautioned against hypocrisy in giving alms. Take heed of it. It is a subtle sin; and vain-glory creeps into what we do, before we are aware.
Our boastful self accomplishments count for nothing toward our justification before God. That is why Paul reminds believers that we have been crucified with Christ and we are no longer in slavery to the desires of the flesh. We are no longer bound to try to impress the world like the false teachers were doing. The vainglorious blowing off about such things as pastoral care experience, staff management experience, small business experience, formal biblical studies, building construction experience, primary & high school management experience and any ordination from a recognized church group,only shows off a man’s covetous desire to impress the world.
-But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Galatians 6:14-
1 Corinthians 1:31
So that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Proverbs 27:2
Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.
2 Corinthians
17 “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” 18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.
2 Thessalonians 1:1-12
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— …
———————————————————————
Matthew 6:1-34
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. …
Jeremiah 9:23
Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches,
Jude 1:16
These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.
James 3
5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things.
How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.
Great, you’ve got your scriptures I’ve got my scriptures. Isn’t fun.
Dean
Not my scriptures Dean, I did not RIGHT THEM.
Perhaps you should accept the righteous scripture’s as truth.
“Great, you’ve got your scriptures I’ve got my scriptures. Isn’t fun.
Dean”
And where are yours?
Scriptures that is!
@ Dean – what has my being a Calvinist got to do with anything? By definition that makes me a believer in the five Solas
Sola Scriptura – Scripture Alone
Solus Christus – Christ Alone
Sola Gratia – Grace Alone
Sola Fide – Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria – The Glory of God Alone
“Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature … God’s grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God’s wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature.” – Cambridge Declaration
Not one thing unbiblical written above yet it seems to be so divisive. Strange that it took leaving C3 to find such unmerited grace available, so freely given, so gratefully received.
I remember hearing so many speakers invited to take the stage at C3, and not one spoke of such things. Come to Jesus, yes, but no gospel.
No gospel message given as to why we have such a great need for such a great Saviour. No clarion call to repent, and I don’t mean “turn or burn” – more a “come to Jesus, he will fix your life, bless you financially, etc etc.”.
In one sense the hero is more Charles Finney and his system of self-reformation than Jesus and His finished redeeming work.
An unregenerate man would not ever desire the things of God on his own. There’s much to gain eternally for the under-shepherd when he clearly preaches to the unregenerate that they are sinners destined for hell, and much to lose when you treat the unregenerate as “seekers” as no man seeks after God (Romans 3:11). You can thank your much revered Rick Warren for that. methodology.
And I truly think some of you guys get it but just don’t or won’t translate this properly to the people.
In the last few years since we’ve left C3, we saw & spoke to many young men actively researching Reformed doctrine until dissuaded by senior leaders. Why? What’s to fear in the doctrines of grace?
In closing, if I could get one question answered, it would be why does C3 chase after “popular” speakers without researching exactly what they bring to the table? Bill Johnson being a primary example.
Suddenly you have your congregation desperate to go over to Bethel and “catch the fire” so to speak (everything old is new again goes the refrain).
How do you deal with the gold dust anointing, the feather anointing, the glory cloud anointing, the false, lying signs and wonders? You can’t. You allowed the cult leader in. And Bethel is definitely a cult.
Time to take responsibility Dean.
But somehow I think the next big thing on the horizon will be Robert Morris……am I prophetic or what? 🙂
I’m not a fan of every speaker I hear at every conference. I just don’t spend time publicly tearing people down on a blog.
I admit to being a little confused. Dean, we should all be able to handle disagreement when done in a respectful, loving manner with the goal of restoring someone to faith in Jesus Christ and to adherence to correct doctrine. I don’t see that here, and I am wondering why you stay. Perhaps it is time to rethink how you engage here, or to move on? I don’t say that to be rude, but because I can’t see that you are being spiritually nourished in this community of people who hold very specific (and I believe, mostly correct) views about what constitutes false teachings, which do not seem to line up with your views at all.
I cannot see the fruit of the Holy Spirit in your uncharitable responses, and you are causing brothers to stumble with your combative attitude. We are all responsible for how we engage in these online communities, so I don’t single you out as the only one who is in error. However, I have yet to see a repentant attitude in your responses, and yet surely you must know that you are wrong in some of your views. We all have been at times, and it is the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives that convicts us of our error, and gives us the ability to confess it to others.
It would be great if you could patiently refute the claims of false teachings through the use of the whole counsel of God to demonstrate how C3 teachings are orthodox, rather than engaging in arguments with hurting people. This I would welcome and be most interested in. I have never been a part of the Pentecostal movement, except to leave an Anglican church last year that was embracing the false signs and wonders and emergent gospels. I missed the worst of it, but have seen these teachings devastate churches. I also know how hard it is to repent from following false teachers and a false gospel!
I have spent a year researching the theologies of the Pentecostal, emergent and church growth movements as well as the doctrines of Buddhism, Hinduism, theosophy and other pagan teachings. Truly, there is a great deal of false teaching dressed as Christianity. There is a darkness in the visible church that produces the very fruit you see people here talking of. I urge you not to dismiss it, or the possibility that you, like the rest of us, have believed and taught at least some of it.
I am truly concerned about the impact you are having on people who have been greatly harmed by the false teachings in their past churches. I cannot imagine that this is your true intention, so I hope that you can receive this admonishment with a teachable spirit. The pastors I know who adhere to correct, orthodox doctrine welcome respectful disagreement and debate over sermons they have preached, without feeling threatened or blindly defending their own favorite teachers or theologians. In fact, in our family service we have a question time straight after the sermon. Our pastor has acknowledged where he has incorrectly stated something in a sermon. It is actually wonderful to see humility from true shepherds!
I wonder whether you would consider exercising a more generous spirit here, patiently addressing the differences in doctrines with people? If you do, you will no doubt find it hones your pastoral skills, and will clarify the body of doctrine you define as orthodox. Engaging in this way, with an open heart to the Gospel is a wonderful way to grow in faith with other brothers and sisters!
In the meantime, please I urge to rethink your defense of Kong Hee and his associates. Regardless of anything else, he has not been in the faith while he has committed these abuses of his position. He has acted in an illegal and ungodly manner and is therefore unfit for ministry in accordance with the Scriptures. The Scriptures also are very clear…once he has been warned of his wrong doing (and he clearly has) you are to have no more to do with him until he repents. By all means, pray for his repentance and salvation! But this is God’s clear instruction to the church, which surely you cannot misunderstand. If you are a true shepherd, you will know this in your heart. Please don’t let your pride prevent you from doing what is right. Otherwise you create a stumbling block for your flock, who will be looking to you for guidance. I can’t see that this would be your desire.
Blessings in Christ, Sherryn
Noted.
Just giving another perspective. Not out to hurt anyone. Think you would agree the views here are pretty one sided. Just giving the other side.
Blessings.
Dean
Dean, thanks for responding. I do agree that we have to be careful not to become obsessed with fault finding in one area of the church over sharing the gospel. No doubt that is a danger for the watchmen here, as it is for you and me.
I do think this current situation is most extraordinary, in that the behaviour of these leaders at City Harvest Church is truly indefensible. I think you know that too. However, there are certainly issues around false doctrine being taught, which many see as the root cause of the behaviors we are witnessing. Remembering too that much is expected of church leaders.
I think you could definitely give some helpful insight into the differences in the teachings, and the fruit it produces. I would certainly look forward to such discussions, especially over at the Hillsong site.
I have listened to many sermons of Brian Houston, and am currently reading a book of his. His teachings are very concerning as they are not biblical, and many churches here in Australia are straying off the narrow path to follow his teachings. I would be interested in your views, from a doctrinal point of view, although we no doubt will disagree in some areas. 🙂 Anyway, that is a discussion for the other site.
May the Lord bless you too Dean. Sherryn
Sherryn, the differences in the body of Christ are wide and varied. It’s a miracle that we all get along for the most part. The troubling this for me is the rise of sites like this one that foster blatant hatred of other brothers and sisters in Christ.
I am carful never to judge other church’s method and culture and even some fringe theology I don’t practice. Ultimately we are all accountable to God.
I will not be leaving C3 church and I will not be rethinking my position on Charismatic theology. I too have studied and am very content. I celebrate your commitment to follow Christ and learn.
It’s a pretty big tent, we can all agree on what unites us, which is the vast majority of basic doctrine and respectfully disagree when we have different interpretation of scripture.
The character assassination that goes on in this blog is breath taking. My involvement here is to provide some other opinions and perspective. You will not see me tearing down other people whom I have a difference of opinion.
Blessings,
Dean
“My involvement here is to provide some other opinions and perspective.”
We do not have a problem with that. We just ask both sides to remain intellectually honest if possible.
If someone doesn’t think C3 is manipulative and controlling I wonder why a whole heap of members of a churches annexed by C3 left years ago left because they thought it was manipulative and controlling?
Btw I’m thinking of doing a doctorate like Phil Pringle. If someone could give me the address offer accredited university he did his at I’d like to have a look at the campus.
People leave churches all the time.
Let me know when you have finished your Phd, accredited institution or otherwise.
Dean
Philippians 3:7-12
New International Version (NIV)
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Once again Dean. Absolutely no response to the carnage you allowed to occur in Asheville.
Hebrews 13:17 17Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those WHO MUST GIVE AN ACCOUNT. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
What will your answer be? How can you explain the hurt that you turned a blind eye to? So, so, so, so sad….. I used to think you truly cared for people. But your actions show you care for nothing more than continuing the lifestyle you love so much that you have created for yourself.
I had confidence in you once, I had a lot of hope that you were different than other pastors in this perverted brand of westernized christianity we have created. But you have proved the man that you are. I do truly wish that you would return to your first love. I do truly pray and believe for that to happen but I have no idea what it will take. So many of us wanted to trust so bad that we believed in you Dean to listen to God and to truly do something different in Asheville.(I’ve now learned that we looked way to much to men and not to Jesus as our high priest so to speak, but this is a completely different issue) We trusted you Dean to help us and had very high hopes of having a wonderful church to worship God together. Many of us were taken by Nick so I can’t fault you for being taken as well. When we realized the truth and many of us men and women who have been walking in the faith for many years approached you and begged you for help and your response: “your either with us and Nick or get off the boat”. How do explain your foolishness???(that’s what the bible calls a man who refuses to listen to wise counsel) You’re arrogance???(thinking that you knew better than the countless God fearing people that approached you) You’re heartlessness?(listening to countless stories of hurt and loss and failing to act) You’re carelessness?(never making a single visit to a church you oversee in obvious turmoil) We weren’t asking for Nick’s head on a plate. We were asking for him to step down as pastor and be counseled so he could repent and receive God’s healing, help and restoration.
Can you PLEASE Dean respond and tell me where the love of Christ was in your actions? Forgive me for my hurtful comments they were wrong and I shouldn’t be so attacking but I have a lot of hurt I’m working through. Jesus is my healer and I’ll work through it.
The people in Asheville need a response from you. I don’t say this to hurt but: I truly you believe you need to ask God and the former members and current members of this church for forgiveness for your actions in this situation.
This is the last time I’m asking for a response
Signed,
Truly praying you’ll repent and turn back to God.
Re Asheville, I will not be commenting until the court proceedings are over. Even when there is a full resolution you will not find me tearing people down publicly on an Internet blog.
If you know me you know that my intentions we good and I continue to believe for a strong healthy C3 Church in Asheville.
Apologies if things did not work out for you.
Dean
Dean,
This is not an apology-“apologies if things did not work out for you”
This is an apology- “I’m sorry you and others were hurt. We’ve made mistakes we will work to do better.”
Or even if you can’t possibly convince yourself you’ve made mistakes- “I’m sorry you and others were hurt it wasn’t my intention.”
People were hurt Dean. People continue to be hurt. I care for these people Dean. I care for the people that are still there and it makes me hurt to know what they are about to go through when they realize the truth. I guess all that I can do now is pray for God to reveal the truth and for his kindness and love to cover them when it is.
I’m dissapointed too. Hope you have found a Spiritual home. I have been very engaged in the situation and continue to believe for the best outcome.
Sorry if things didn’t work out for wou with C3 church.
I presume that means until after sentencing? That’s fine. Would love to see his Pre-Sentence Report, if they do that in that jurisdiction…
Would also like to see a court diary. You can usually find them for Supreme and District Courts and some Mag’s courts in capital cities and where the higher courts sit, so you’d think the US might be similar.
‘“you’re either with us and Nick or get off the boat”’
Did you really say that, Dean? Really?
The same man who said ‘Please!! You’ve got to be joking. C3 employs no “cult-like tactics”.’ ?
Do you know what the term “delusional” means, Dean?
Unity is pretty important in a church. What ever I said was probably encouraging people to stay or leave. If people want to leave a church they should do so and try and be as positive as possible and not divide those that want to stay.
I made some tough decisions in this situation, probably not all correct. But the malicious intent of some to destroy people was sad. No pastor is perfect but the hatred dished out was pretty uncalled for.
It’s interesting the amount of people that left for Dimitris to stay. Why not remove the thorn rather than destroy the body?
“Unity is pretty important in a church.”
Wrong again, Dean.
Unity is what the true church *already has* by virtue of the fact that its members have received the same Spirit, and are thus one in spirit among themselves, whereas your bald and uncompromising statement “you’re either with us and Nick or get off the boat” is a strident demand for lock-step uniformity: it is *exactly* the same sort of approach with which cults bully and browbeat dissenters and those who are wavering.
And, of course, in cults it is *always* the leaders who are held to be correct; it logically follows from this that leaders should be defended at all costs, no matter how egregious their errors or how serious their shortcomings. Any complaints from the flock are arrogantly dismissed, and those who persist in pursuing truth rather than kowtowing to their spiritual masters are dealt with by whatever means are deemed appropriate. Does this sound familiar, Dean?
We have already established that C3 does indeed use cult-like tactics, and now you have not only admitted to stooping to those very tactics yourself, but you have displayed distinctly cultic behaviours and attitudes in your posts here as well. You really are a typical C3 “pastor”, manifesting as you do the all the symptoms of a classic sufferer of the Dunning-Kruger effect (if you have all that business knowledge that you claim, you will know what that is).
And you have the unmitigated gall to call into question the credibility of others when it is abundantly clear, with everything that you post here, that you yourself don’t have a clue what you are doing.
Keep up the rants Zorro, I love the contrast.
I also love the contrast. Zorro – a thought out, intelligent response. Dean – a short blast with no substance.
“Unity in a church” -Dean is very important 😉 Of course that is impossible to do when you have a TRUE integrity issue with the head pastor. I was raised in a healthy church and saw “oversight” do what they are supposed to do. True “oversight” wouldn’t encourage “everyone else” to leave when the ONE problem was the head pastor. The correct thing to do would be to “remove the issue”. Shouldn’t it have been more obvious when Nick’s ENTIRE staff left?????? Instead…we have multiple families who are strung out all over the place…some in church…some not…it’s sad to think this all could have been avoided. C3 Asheville had something wonderful going on…Sometimes you have to stick up for what is right…not what’s easy…the easy way out of this was to “ignore” the real issue and that’s what happened. I along with many others were hurt in this situation. However THANKFUL I went through this to learn how to handle situations and how NOT to.
thats exactly the way phil pringle speaks to and treats his congregation. so nasty cruel arrogant and ungodly. The issue i have with c3 is the condition of their hearts – whitewashed tombs which is an indicatíon that their is something very wrong with their relationship with God.
Return to his first love? Pastor Dean has been a fraud since he began his church in Lwarenceville, Georgia in 1999. He NEVER cared about people. I went to his church and because I wasn’t a BIG TITHER, he called himself calling me out in front of the entire church.
It was small at that time, so there were about 20-30 members maybe, but it was still embarrassing, unfair, unreasonable, UNGODLY, CONDEMNING and damaging. He didn’t even know me or anything about me or my personal struggles. How dare HE?
He’s always been a wolf. You’re JUST waking up and realizing it now. He’s been all about money and self from jump. The anointing was NEVER present in that mausoleum of dead men’s bones he calls a church. The man is a false teacher. ALWAYS HAS BEEN! I’ve know it for 16 years.
“[Dean]’s always been a wolf.”
The facts come out in the end, don’t they? Dean Sweetman thinks that he can hide the truth from God, but he can’t even hide it from men. Dean’s true spiritual antecedents are the Pharisees, and, just like them, he will be most severely judged for his arrogance and hypocrisy – a richly-deserved fate that he will share with so many other c3 “pastors” and “leaders”.
Dean has shown a propensity to simply ignore questions for which he has no answer, but a day is coming when God will demand of him an accounting, and Dean will be compelled to give it. On that day, Dean will be forced onto his knees to acknowledge God, and his stiff neck will be bent in the sight of all those whom he has treated with undisguised contempt.