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2020 Vision, c3 2020 vision, c3 church, c3 church movement, C3 leaders meeting, ccc, ccc 2020 vision, ccc church, ccc vision, college, conference, conferences, false prophet, false teacher, god given, god given vision, god vision, Habakkuk, leaders meeting, Phil Pringle, Presence Conference, Pringle, Prophet Phil Pringle, vision, Vision 2020
For a very long period of time we have seen Pringle play word games and use deceptive means to convince people that his prophetic 2020 Vision from God is being fulfilled. The reason why we are tackling this issue now is because of recent footage we managed to find online.
In our first article we established that Pringle had received a ‘God-give’ vision to PLANT 1000 churches by the year 2020.
If you have not read our previous article, Prophet Pringle’s God-Given 2020 Vision Lie (Part 1), do so now.
In this article we will examine how Phil Pringle is purposely going out of his way to convince his members that his church is PLANTING churches daily to ‘fulfill’ the 2020 vision.
IS PHIL PRINGLE YOUR HABAKKUK?
In the past, we critiqued a giving sermon that had Pringle twist the definition of ‘church plant’. We were being overtly cautious at the time because we believed our critics would accuse us falsely of making up the transcript or find some minor fault with us if we accused Phil Pringle of being highly deceptive.
C3 Giving Sermon Transcript: Just Another Manic Sunday
“Let Me Just Talk To You Out Of A Scripture” – Pringle’s Use of John 3:16
In our “Let Me Just Talk To You Out Of A Scripture…” article, we think it is important to reiterate the following information:
In his message Phil Pringle does not seem to know basic arithmetic:
56 people + 36 wanting to plant a church + 16 churches rebranded + 2 church plants ≠ 120 Church Plants
We are almost forced to believe that Dr. Phil Pringle doesn’t have a basic knowledge of church missions and biblical terminology. Pringle is calling ‘church planting’ a “group of pastors” to be “thirty six churches” and “a guy in Bulgaria who has sixteen churches” who possibly “wants to hook” into the C3 movement…
Pringle continues to make dishonest and unsupported claims suggesting that his organisation is responsible for one church being planted every day in Jesus’ name. Pringle says, “I know you were doubting out there but it’s okay. I have my moments too. And so you and I believing together- we’ll start to see ten churches a day being planted and growing”…
Pringle begins to mix his phrases through his address so that it becomes difficult to know what Pringle actually means…
… previously in his message to garner funding he only talked about the number of churches that were being added to his movement, not how many people “will come to Christ all around the world today”. We can rightly conclude he is still talking about the 120 churches he was talking about previously because he confirmed that these churches were coming into the C3 Movement, “right now in Jesus’ name. That’s just in four weeks time”.
Pringle continues, “That’s just in the existing churches. Now once these new ones are coming in. And they come into Christ, they become disciples, they become empowered and they become ministries themselves”
It is important to ask whether more accurately these alleged thousands being saved from his aforementioned C3 church ‘plants’ are not rather those people in existing churches being rebranded into the C3 fold. This is flawed thinking to confuse such people who join the C3 banner with salvation into Christ. The conclusions we come too after such dialogue is not good.
If Pringle is saying churches who join C3 “come into Christ, …become disciples,” “become empowered” and “become ministries themselves”, that would make C3 a cult. That is, if Pringle believes their movement is the only true church with the right teachings and formulas for salvation then he himself has set his movement to be a cult…
The sermon that we critiqued was given on the 24th of October, 2010. We managed to get video footage of Phil Pringle later that week repeating the same false material to his staff and C3 college students.
First we want to show a video snippet that features Pringle at the start of his sermon portraying himself as a type of Habakkuk. In this snippet, Pringle stresses that leaders shouldn’t have a vision but a ‘God Vision’. As he is the leader, Pringle attempts to establish at the beginning of this sermon that he is a ‘leader’ leading by ‘example’ with his ‘God Vision’. Pringle is the Habbakuk of C3. He is the watchman and knows the future where the movement is heading. He has the vision to go forward. (Heaven forbid you question his infallible God-given direction.)
Here is the video. Below is the transcript.
“I just want to touch on a few things here today for all of us. As students and staff. Number one, is uh- vision: the importance of it. And how much we need that if we’re gonna change this world. We won’t achieve anything without a vision. But it needs to be a God vision. Okay?
Just having a vision is really not the answer. And so in all the business manuals and coaching, training, you’ll hear about how important vision is. But that’s just a vision people are dreaming up in their own mind. We need to have a God vision inside of us.” – Phil Pringle, 00:16, C3 Church Sydney and C3 College combined staff and students meeting 27 October 2010, http://vimeo.com/16260821, October 27, 2010 6:30 PM.
Later on, he recaps what he said earlier on Sunday (which is the transcript you read here). Transcript is below.
“Empowering saints is giving. Is delegation. It’s getting people to do things for God. And- and uh, (hm-hm!), so we- we want to release people all the time to get stuff done. And I think it’s awesome! Every- I mean, every week, just about, we see a brand new musician up on the stage. And uh- to get people preaching in chapel. All these things. But the ultimate goal is that we will get people to plant churches and grow churches all around the world.
In the last- uh- (I haven’t- I haven’t done a really detailed study on this though). Well let me- let me explain this. And I mentioned it on Sunday but for those who didn’t hear, I’ll say it again.
In Bali, (which was what? Four weeks ago? Four weeks ago? I think it was. One month? Yeah. [Crowd laughs] Thanks! Thanks Jake! It wasn’t four weeks. It was a month ago), and ah- In Bali, we had our South- East Asia conference, okay.
So a guy comes out. He says, “I’m joining the movement with my churches”. I said, “How many churches have you got?” He said, “Forty eight 48”. In a place called Myanmar [Burma]. So I said, “Okay”. And I really wanted to clear this up. I said, “It’s not just you joining? You’re actually- all these guys are coming?”
“Yep.”
Then another guy from Indonesia, (Philippines, sorry!), he was joining with eight churches. And then we were celebrating planting two churches at that time. All up that’s fifty eight churches. Right there, okay, four weeks ago. Then, another one of our overseers, has just come back from Indonesia. And he says, uh, he’s just having, he’s got thirty six churches just on their way in as well. That’s- ah- how many’s that? Ninety- ninety- four! Ninety four churches, okay?
Then, ah, in- in Africa, East Africa, the uh, the guys over there said they got about a hundred pastors and leaders. And there were thirty churches in Tanzania, Congo, bla-bla-bla, somewhere else. I thought, “I don’t know if they’re brand new or half new or whatever”. So I thought, “Oh! Just count half of them”. So that’s like a hundred and- that’s a hundred and ten. Hundred and nine actually.
Then Simon told me that he’s talking to a guy in Bulgaria. Ah- who is a really good guy. He’s got sixteen churches. And he is also hooking up. He’s got a big church, one of the biggest in Bulgaria. It’s about six hundred. That’s a big church in that part of the world. So that’s one hundred and twenty. One hundred and twenty churches in one month. That adds up to a growth rate of around about four churches a day. Okay? You know, like- I s- I- I know! I know! So, what are you doing here?
You’re getting ready to look after these churches. You’re getting ready to grow these churches.” – Phil Pringle, 24:16, C3 Church Sydney and C3 College combined staff and students meeting 27 October 2010, http://vimeo.com/16260821, Uploaded October 27, 2010 6:30 PM.
SO WHAT? WHAT ARE WE SEEING?
Let us believe Phil Pringle for a moment. Let us establish for a second that the 2020 Vision IS from God. Pringle has emphatically stated that this 2020 ‘God Vision’ or ‘God-given vision’ is to PLANT 1000 churches. But what are we seeing? We are seeing a man trying to convince his various audiences that the 2020 Vision is being fulfilled for the glory of God.
But were 120 churches PLANTED in his movement over one month? No.
If Pringle was following the ‘God Given’ 2020 vision, he would be planting churches and not rebranding, converting or assimilating churches into his movement. If he is not planting church, isn’t Pringle opposing the ‘God Given’ 2020 Vision?
What else are we seeing? Let’s say that those 120 church joined the C3 movement. What does this mean?
It means that a third of his churches were established in ONE MONTH. If any person examined his claim in ratio to the current number of churches in his movement a few months later, they’d know that Pringle was lying to them. Where are these church ‘plants’ today?
This actually raises more questions. Is the C3 Church Movement mainly made up of church plants or rebranded churches? If the C3 Church movement fills up with redbranded churches, does this mean that the movement itself is failing God and His 2020 Vision?
We are about to discover that the C3 movement is mainly filled with rebranded churches.
ARE CHURCHES REALLY BEING PLANTED OR REBRANDED?
Whenever a C3 Church plant is about to be undertaken in the C3 Church movement, the news is often huge. For example, leading up to it’s establishment, Phil Pringle and other leaders were monotonously advertising, Facebooking and twittering the C3 Hong Kong church plant. If churches were being planted everyday, Pringle and his leadership would be plastering the news everywhere. However, they don’t.
We would like to conclude that the majority of C3 churches are not church plants but takeovers. To say that churches are being rebranded is not accurate. A takeover is more appropriate since C3 specifically targets churches and assimilates them into it’s collective.
What should be evident in the above transcripts is how C3 uses their conferences to target and market to churches to join their movement. In the name of ‘relevancy’, a C3 conference can easily make local churches feel inadequate, boring and irrelevant. Who cares about the local church and cultural sensitivity when C3 is the answer to your church’s problem! (Who could resist the enticing relevant music, the flashy lights, and the manufactured presence of God?)
Consider again what Pringle said in the above transcripts.
“In Bali, we had our South- East Asia conference, okay.
So a guy comes out. He says, “I’m joining the movement with my churches”. I said, “How many churches have you got?” He said, “Forty eight 48”. In a place called Myanmar [Burma]…
Then another guy from Indonesia, (Philippines, sorry!), he was joining with eight churches. And then we were celebrating planting two churches at that time. All up that’s fifty eight churches…”
“And then Simon came back from the European conference and he met a guy in Bulgaria who has sixteen churches. And he wants to hook in as well.”
May we remind you again what Pringle said how he wanted people to see his Presence Conference:
“We really want to become more cross-denominational, not parochial about just being C3… And it’s so important that we just, you know, spill the banks, go over, lower the wall, let the water run through the city and be a blessing. And not out there just to drag people into- you know- and to get people into and- many people will get involved in what we’re doing and that’s good. But I don’t want that to be the only motivation that we have. I think that if we have the motivation to be a blessing beyond us, that would be a really good- a really good idea.” – Phil Pringle, C3 Leaders Meeting With Phil Pringle – May 2011, Youtube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgTdtB-ha0s, Uploaded by CCCOF on May 5, 2011.
So we can rule out the fact that this ‘vision’ is about ‘planting churches’. We’ve now established this to be false. While we can argue that C3 does rebrand churches, it doesn’t accurately describe the malicious scheming and marketing attempts they use to target vulnerable churches through their conferences around the world. If what is said in the transcripts is true, then one third of all C3 Churches are takeovers. However, C3 appears to inform us that they have taken over more churches than they have planted.
If people are still not convinced that the 2020 Vision is a lie, this next bit of information should convince you.
THW 20/20 VISION FAILING IN VISION
We wrote an article back in December of 2011. In it we had screen grabs and older information on the location of C3 Churches around the world .
C3 Reports It Has Roughly 243 Churches Globally
Now the date is the 27th of October 2013. All the screengrabs you see and read below are recorded on this date.
If people visit the c3churchglobal.com website, click ‘CHURCHES’ and you will come across to this page (http://c3churchglobal.com/church):
You will be taken to this map. You will notice links at the bottom of the right hand corner: “VIEW: ALL | PLANTS”. This wasn’t available two years ago. This is recently added. If you click ‘ALL’ you will see this map:
So why does the C3 Church Global have a link to PLANTS? When you click the ‘PLANTS’ link, you will see the following map:
Going by the newer information what are we looking at? There are only seven church plants in America? Five church plants in Europe? Three church plants in Europe? Four church plants in Asia? Four in the South East Asia Pacific rim? Four in Australia? About nine in New Zealand and a few around Fiji?
With the information given, that is about fourty churches in total that C3 Church considers ‘Church Plants’. Yet the C3 movement brags of planting anywhere between 240 to 400 churches worldwide? And what are the churches in blue? Church takeovers?
If this information is true, than Phil Pringle has failed spectacularly to fulfill his 2020 Vision. If God did give Pringle the 2020 Vision, then we have the C3churchglobal website exposing Pringle for the false prophet that he is.
NOTE: We would like to ask for your help next article. If you can help us find churches that C3 has taken over, please email us links, screen grabs, testimonies or other forms of evidence. Our email is c3churchwatch@hotmail.com.
C3 Church Watch 
Firstly, I would like to know these churches that have “joined” – are they fully-fledged churches or just home churches? Like meeting in people’s homes and not having the standard c3 doctrine preached thus far?
2nd – admittedly this does happen with other movements such as AOG; yet there’s not a single visionary in AOG unlike Phil.
Some are individual churches, I would suggest that home groups can’t afford to join. There is a financial cost or “tithe” back to the mother ship.
Correct, many Godly organisations do incredible things. Unfortunately many un-godly organisations do incredible things in the opposite direction.
For clarification purposes here is the structure and methodology behind C3 Church Global and the 2020 Vision.
The 2020 Vision is 1000 churches by the year 2020. This is being achieved by both planting churches and adopting already established churches into the movement.
We are not a denomination as such. Unlike say the Methodist, Catholic or Episcopal church we do not have a centralized entity that owns assets or requires pastors to adhere to set formalized directives from “Head Office”. Local churches with in C3 are encouraged to adapt to their local community and the form of that expression can differ from city to city and country to country.
The basis for C3 church and it’s local pastors is largely relational. We do ask for some basics to be adhered to and policies and charters that I can share with you.
Leading people to Christ, weekly church services, worship and asking members to serve Jesus with their God given talents are at our foundation.
C3 Church grows in two ways. One, we plant new churches and two, we adopt already established churches who see the benefit of being a part of a movement such as ours.
Adopted churches are largely introduced through relationships on the local level and there is a rigorous joining process. We require that pastors who wish to join attend two of our leadership/pastor conferences over 12 months. These can be regional or global or even local church conferences. We want to expose pastors to our culture and emphasis before they make the important decision of joining C3. This can take up to 18 months. Some pastors decide not to join but many do. Upon joining we may require a further provisional 12 months to make sure it is the right fit for all parties concerned. This is at the discretion of the Regional Overseer. The fact is many pastors (think thousands) leave the ministry every month. Loneliness is sighted as the number one cause over and over again. C3 did not start out to grow by adoption in fact it was quiet the opposite. However as we have journeyed over the years we have found ourselves adapting to the needs of many pastors and churches who desire over site and the security C3 can provide.
We plant churches buy usually raising up couples on the local level, have them enter into some formalized training and help them decide where and when and prepare them as best we can. In my experience there is no science that guarantees church planting success. Out of our church in Atlanta, we have planted some churches that grown and gone on to contribute to their community in a positive way and others that we have had to shut down due to various reasons. Again it is not an exact science and we have learned much over the years.
As mentioned in an above comment we require a church to have over 75 members to be counted in our stats for the 2020 Vision.
All churches after they have reached over 75 members are required to pay 3% of their tithes excluding money raised for building funds or missions to their perspective regional office. .5% goes to maintaining and expanding the global website (which is actually a centralized global data base on top of presenting C3 church to the world), 2.5% goes to putting on conferences, overseer travel for coaching and other training opportunities through out the calendar year. As mentioned above some denominations/networks require 10% or a yearly fee. Regional overseers are required to submit a budget to the global office which is in turn audited by independent accounts in accordance with Australian charities law.
This is a quick and some what simplistic view of what C3 and the 2020 Vision is about. We are certainly not the only church group God is using around the world. But we are honored to expand God’s kingdom by strengthening and serving God’s people.
Excuse any typos as I am on an iPad and flying at 38,000 feet on my way back to Atlanta. Feel free to message me on Facebook if you require further clarification.
Dean
Thank you Dean. We will see what we can do with this new information.
I notice Asheville is still counted as a church on your global website. How is that possible since they only have maybe 40 people now total? Keep letting it slide Deano. All of Asheville is watching in amazement at your inaction. Pretty soon Nick the convicted felon will be sentenced. How could you let this happen?
Isn’t it amazing in a town that is rapidly growing C3 Asheville is rapidly decreasing in size?
Thanks Dean, other than the 3% are there perchance any other royalty agreements? Say around brand or music?
Does C3 Group publish it’s financials or its articles anywhere?
With regards to the 2010 C3 Policy Document from the C3 group website, it’s very unusual in that it specifically names Phil Pringle and his wife. Typically in the real world these sort of documents reference positions only (e.g. “Chairman”, “Director” etc) as the people occupying those positions may change. Do other C3 ministers not find that a little odd (as to me it appears a little cult-like), or are you all happy with the understanding that you all report to PP?
Nope, no other required payments.
Everybody does not report to Phil Pringle. We have a regional oversite structure and a global executive.
No “cult-like” behavior here. People a free to come and go as they please.
C3 Church grows in two ways. One, we plant new churches and two, we adopt already established churches […]”
That’s wonderful Dean, except that “adopting” an established church is not growth, it is simply presented as such by C3 “leaders” who are desperate to have the 2020 “vision” come to pass. (While we are on the subject, perhaps you could explain to us why on earth God would give someone a vision to adopt established churches).
“[…] who see the benefit of being a part of a movement such as ours.”
And exactly what benefits supposedly accrue to those who join your ship of fools, Dean? Is it really the case that a spiritually-discerning leader would one day wake up and think “I need to join the C3 ‘movement’ so that I can come under the wing of the heretic and fraud Phil Pringle, and pay 3% of my church’s income to him for the privilege”?
“We require that pastors who wish to join attend two of our leadership/pastor conferences over 12 months.”
Mandatory conferences? Like Amway, you mean?
“Upon joining we may require a further provisional 12 months to make sure it is the right fit for all parties concerned. This is at the discretion of the Regional Overseer.”
So you would have exercised your discretion in establishing that the self-confessed felon Nick Dimitris was “a good fit for all parties”, would you Dean? Now that he is awaiting sentencing for his crime, do you still think that he is “a good fit”? Is he continuing in his post as a so-called “pastor” at your discretion?
“[…] over the years we have found ourselves adapting to the needs of many pastors and churches who desire over site [sic] and the security C3 can provide.”
Similar to the manner in which the pope provides oversight and security for his myriad misled minions, is that right Dean?
“In my experience there is no science that guarantees church planting success.”
Science, Dean? Science? I didn’t know that church-planting was a “science”. Maybe you could explain to us the “science” of the resurrection and the “science” of conversion. As a bonus, how about enlightening us as to the “science” behind healing and deliverance?
“[…] we have learned much over the years.”
Really? Talking of people who claim to have learned much, you still haven’t told us: is Phil Pringle a doctor, or not? And you haven’t yet apprised us of the institution from which your wife “Dr” Jill Sweetman obtained her bogus PhD, either.
Nothing to say, Dean?
You’re a crack preacher, aren’t you? Surely you don’t perceive yourself to be thoroughly outmatched by those who quiz you via this web site? Are we really that intimidating? Is your comfort zone restricted to being in “church”, where you can hide behind a lectern and exercise your “authority” to summarily dismiss naysayers from your presence? What a sad excuse of a “pastor” you are – isn’t there *anyone* within C3 who has both the bottle to engage the movement’s detractors and the brains to actually carry it off? (I note that Phil Pringle doesn’t dare venture to ever comment here; in his stead he sends his dupes, who are even duller than he himself).
Anyway, here’s another question for you: when Phil Pringle obtained his fake doctorate, he was overseen in his endeavours by none other than Kong Hee. Do you think that the fact that Kong has been unmasked as a plagiarist should have disqualified him from being able to provide such “oversight”, or would you agree that his laziness and cavalier disregard for intellectual rectitude were entirely consistent with Phil’s pathetic academic charade?
“zorro” you may need to see a doctor for your condition.
Mental illness effects many people. The stigma of mental illness often keeps people in the shadows. Posting anonymous hate and vitriol can be a sign of deep emotional issues.
I’m sure a professional in this field could help you.
Dean
‘“zorro” you may need to see a doctor for your condition.’
A real doctor or a fake one, Dean?
I note that you continue to deal with pointed questions in the only way that you can – by studiously ignoring them. Your observation that “The stigma of mental illness often keeps people in the shadows” is ironic in the extreme, coming as it does from one who himself, having thrown in his lot with deceivers, abides in spiritual darkness.
You hold yourself up to be a pastor, and you should be walking in the light – and bringing all your works into that light so that everyone can see that what you have done has been done through God. Sadly, you find truth simply too confronting, and, when faced with undeniable facts, you scuttle away into the safety of the nearest dark corner (how you must treasure the haven of your “church”, where you can hold sway before an adoring crowd, and where dissenters can be summarily dealt with).
(And your knee-jerk resort to the expedient of calumny doesn’t cut any ice with the discerning, Dean. On the contrary, your entirely pathetic ad hominems actually bring into stark relief your own shallowness and intellectual bankruptcy, and serve to underscore an abject poverty of spirit that is the hallmark of so many of today’s self-appointed “leaders” in organisations such as C3).
why only couples can start a church?
why geisha ho do church video wearing nothing bv a bikini?
This post is not about C3 churches, but it is still a relevant and timely warning to those ‘sheep’ who may one day find their own pastor ‘fleecing’ them.
Beware of the so called ‘church merger’ – it is almost always a ‘takeover’. I witnessed one of these in my neighbourhood here in Brisbane some 5 years ago. A certain church down by the river, and real close to the city, declared itself to be “broke” one Sunday morning. People were aghast, but the pastor remained silent on the details.
After being in existence since 1972, (it met closer to the CBD for many years and then sold up and moved a little further out.) They purchased a sizable amount of real estate to reestablish the ministry in. Most of the land contained light industrial sheds, car yards and old houses. A part of the land was cleared and a church facility for 300 people was built – the rest was sold off to developers for several unit blocks and some shopfronts.
After some 36 years of ministry (the former founding pastor retired and handed it over to the man who would sell it some 12 years later,) the church was approached by another ‘brand’ from Adelaide, via Melbourne. The new ‘brand’ offered the old ‘brand’ a merger, seeing they were now broke!
What the former CLC didn’t realise was that the all new Metro ‘Church’ didn’t do “mergers” – they only did takeovers, and that’s exactly what happened in January of 2008. The old guard eldership were told by Brian Andrews (of the CLC) that the new Metro, would be taking over the premises – after he sold it to them!
Many people were against this sale, and of course, the obvious question being asked by one and all at the end of 2007 was: “how could the CLC church possibly go broke.?” It had been debt free for years, because of the wise choices and decisions made by its founding father, Trevor Chandler, many years ago. The sale of all the surplus land and subsequent giving by church members, had more than paid off any residual debts incurred in building the new premises in Sydney Street New Farm, almost 2 decades before.
‘Pastor’ Brian had a lot of questions that he needed to answer – he answered none of them, because the structure of that CLC church gave him the authority to sell whatever he deemed fit to sell. There no voting rights for members in this case.
And the ‘proceeds of that sale? (figure undisclosed) well, no former members of that (now closed and defunct) church seemed to know what happened to that money, or exactly how much it was. What they did find out over the grapevine, was that ‘pastor’ Brian had retired, and had allegedly purchased not one, but two riverside properties. He reportedly lives in one, and rents the other one out – not bad on a pastor’s wage???
Three years later, the premises experienced the ravages of the Brisbane 2011 floods and the bottom half of the building was decimated. Every wall and floor covering was waterlogged, every electrical power point and appliance was water damaged. Why? Because Metro Church had decided in its wisdom ( and against the good advice of Brisbane City Council safety officers,) NOT to sandbag the main entrances to the building and internal car park! “God will protect us” it was presumed from the pulpit.
They even had to throw cups and plates from the kitchen out, due to potentially serious health risks!
Word on the streets has it that Metro sold the building (as is) for some $15 million dollars (I’ll bet Brian is still kicking himself for bailing when he did,) and also collected the lavish insurance payout for repairs, even though no repairs were ever done by Metro Church.
Austin Hellier
Brisbane Australia
This comment shouldn’t be in this thread….well not entirely.
Metro (now iSee) Church should not be labelled or put in the same basket as c3, Kong Hee etc.
I will explain…
Thank you, Austin for your detailed account of what happened. I don’t particularly doubt what happened there. First of all, I don’t go Metro/iSee but have some good contacts there. However I will make one clear distinction here – the Geerlings are not in it for the money. I can guarantee that fact. Besides, the ACC (Australian Christian Churches) oversee iSee, as far as I’m aware, whereas Phil overseas Phil and possibly a board, (ie they don’t have a national executive as I know of).
I cannot comment on the dealings of Brian pre-Metro; I do know he does itinerate speaking and from memory and has written numerous books. Obviously some of the congregation of CLC hung around for Metro, some didn’t. It was a very mixed congregation in regards to countries of birth (of course a good thing). Their vision was to have churches on the North, South, East and West, and a Central Church. The had the Central, West (which was a merge etc with another church – and again I cannot advise of the details). An East (Capalaba?) church was planted, and I think a South campus was on the ball and now exists.
That leaves a North campus. The old Taigum AOG was (in my opinion) plodding along OK several years ago. Gary and Judy Levens moved in as Senior Ministers and put a big missions focus to it (they have extensive missionary experience). Now, being an AOG/NCC church, obviously everyone is accountable to a state/national executive, so you think there would be a finger on the pulse somewhere. Having said that, I am not aware of any plans for the Levens to retire (apparently they have just started a church at Dayboro on the rural outskirts of Brisbane, interesting for people their age). The plan was (to my knowledge) for Metro church to merge (takeover?) Taigum AOG in approximately July 2011. However, as Austin explained, the floods completely smashed New Farm and the Metro building. Hence the merge of Metro and Taigum happened almost instantly. I went there a few times to visit and noticed the multicultural mix was insane – of course in a good way, just very mixed.
I cannot offer any exact details about the flood insurance payout, except to say it would be substantial. However I can guarantee and if I was a betting man, put money on it – that Paul and Jo Geerling would not be pocketing any money from it whatsoever. This is not c3 – there is accountability in place, there are numerous people above them, and there’s not some boy’s club inner circle. Of course, having $10 million in the bank is gonna help. It was my understanding it was going to go to extending the Taigum venue. It’s also been (or was) paying rental for Central campus meeting places.
If you have any evidence of the contrary – please let us know, however I think anyone would be scraping the barrel to accuse the Geerlings of pocketing money from the sale, even from their evangelistic mission. Sure, there might be some “takeovers” or “mergers” of financially in trouble churches in place (this is only an observation and definitely not necessarily the truth), but they aren’t in it for the money.
Charlotte,
thanks for your speedy reply to my recent post. I posted it here because of the potential that C3 has to gather small fellowship into their ‘fold’ and then take them over under the guise of a possible ‘merger’. The old CLC and the Metro church did not ‘merge’ as was first proposed, the CLC WAS taken over, and most of the people left within the first 12 months of the handover in January 2008. The impression that I gained from several members who had, like myself, been in both churches for a time, was that Metro was “less than accountable”. Brian Andrews did publish weekly offerings once or twice a month, but I’m not asking about that.
I can assure you that I just didn’t go to the old River City Church (the former CLC was re branded in its latter years,) ‘a few times’ – I was in the neighbourhood well before I became involved, and went there for almost a year, and kept tabs on it for the next 3 years after I left. Some 6 years later, I can safely say that former members, who I bump into occasionally in the inner city, are still asking “where did all the money go?” And some of them have far more of a right to ask these questions than I do, as some of them supported that church for decades, not just years!
I’m not making this a personal attack on the Geerlings, but I and other (poor) people who they didn’t seem to want around their new church were gotten rid of – not just me, but others too, in typical ‘big church style’. ‘Pastors’ have ways and means of getting rid of you, if you disagree with their stance, policy, doctrine, visiting ministries, or question the handling of money. I’m not saying that the money was ‘pocketed’ by anyone, but I’m still asking “where did it go”???
None of these big churches are very good at accounting for their tithe money that comes in, and pastor’s wages are often kept secret, otherwise the members may take issue with the often large wads of money that they get paid each year. Without media exposure, Hillsong would still be silent would they not?
Having contributed to both churches financially, I feel that I have that right too, but there seems to be no answers, some five years later. If I were to tell you the story of how I and others were gotten rid of, you might not be so sympathetic to those who you seem so keen to defend
Metro Church comes out of the Paradise AoG under Ashley Evans, along with Planet Shakers et al – these movements are hand in glove with Hillsong and all the other false prophet movements of our day. To say that ‘C3’ and ‘Isee’ aren’t the same animal, is like comparing the horses in the Melbourne Cup (just to keep the conversation relevant) – they may not have come out of the same stall, and some are larger and faster than others, but they are running the same race, and will cross the same finish line too, whether they have installed the ‘mirage’ of accountability or not!
If you had seen the total lack of accountability I have seen in many church circles over the last 35 years of my journey with the Lord, you would understand where I’m coming from. I’m not here to defame people with anything false, and my account is an eye witness one for the time I was there in BOTH churches – and the hash that Brian Andrews made of it – I mean seriously, Charlotte, using Bono and U2 as a source for his sermons for weeks on end at a time? Feeding the sheep spiritual junk food?
Finally, I have no issues with founding father Trevor Chandler, as all spoke well of him, that could remember him – a good shepherd in a day and an age where large sections of the church seem to like the company of hirelings better.
I could have said more about both “churches” but maybe that’s enough for now…
Enough said
Austin Hellier
I am curious…why would a church would call itself iSee? I just watched a video from the church about its activities. It certainly was very iFocused. What is a ‘first fruits miracle offering’? Is that the same as a seed offering? Also, what is ’14 days of breakthrough’? Or ‘Kingdom Business’? The only place I have ever heard of these things in New Apostolic Reformation churches such as Bethel, and from other Word of Faith teachers. Since these movements teach serious heresy, I am curious then how iSee is not in the same category as Phil Pringle’s churches. Surely their administrative structure is irrelevant…do they preach the whole counsel of God faithfully, do they reject worldliness, and do they separate from false teachers and heretical doctrine?
Austin, I appreciate your insightful and measured contribution to this discussion. It is helpful for others to understand that it isn’t just the more famous ‘churches’ that have problems. I see churches here in Melbourne being founded on, or sliding into the same error. In fact, the Melbourne Cup analogy seems more than adequate. I concede that it may be quite possible that the leaders of this particular church are not in it for the money. But if they preach a different gospel, and promote false signs and wonders then they are in urgent need of God’s mercy, whatever their motives. Blessings in Christ, Sherryn
It’s my understanding the 14 days or 30 days of breakthrough is actually praying and fasting, which admittedly is what Jesus said to do ie fast. I went to a service when they were doing it and talked about fasting various things not necessarily food. As for the first fruits thing, it’s an AOG thing or at least one church I know used to do it at least 20 years ago. They use the honour The Lord with your first fruits….then your vats will overflow etc, which again is an Old Testament/law kind of thing isn’t it.
I know I’m quick to defend Metro but as Sheryl asked “do they preach the whole counsel of God faithfully”, and I would say they’re doing a lot better than most contemporary churches, or at least when I visited. They still talk about dreams and all sorts of things but yeah.
Charlotte,
once again, thanks for calling in.
It’s not my purpose in contributing to these blogs, to lambaste people for any perceived faults and failings on a personal level. I too can concede that the Geerlings appear to be people of good character, and in this particular instance they may not be in it ‘for the money’ (the $10 to $15 million dollar proceeds of the sale of the former CLC building in Sydney Street New Farm,) depending on whch verson you may have heard…
They are however, part of a system that “does business” a certain way, and that methodology may prove to be biblical – or not…
My real concern is that people are warned about some obviously false doctrines such as Latter Rain, and its modern counterpart under the NAR. Then there’s the aberrant practices, such as undue ‘tithing sermons’ and other money scams like ‘honour the pastor’ collections as well as all of the freakish and egxistential experiences that come out of Bethel (shaking uncontrollably, ‘fire tunnels’, the appearance of gemstones and gold dust??? manifestly false prophecy?)
That’s just to name a few, and these things have infected at least a dozen churches here in Brisbane under these NAR ‘apostles’. Some of these ‘churches’ are starting to look more like the Montanists, rather than the Godly works that their forefathers raised up a generation or two before… These doctrines and practices may not be evidenced at Isee churches here in Brisbane – (not yet,) but it is better to be safe now than to be sorry later on.
Even moreso than that, when we see a pack of wolves heading for the flock, then all of God’s “sheepdogs” will start barking out the warnings.Some of us have been around in the Body of Christ for a long time Charlotte, and have seen so many ‘ministries’ and movements come and go, and most of the aberrant kind we are talking about, usually depart the scene under a cloud.
As per your thoughts in your first post, Metro had a congregation meeting in the picture theatre at Chermside. This entire congregation was ‘moved’ to New Farm in 2008. The one you mentioned as ‘south’ met at a facility at the South Bank complex near the Cultural Centre.
The Capalaba one was closed down (although one has to wonder as to why a perfectly good local church was closed and without any real warning either???) and the congreggation dispersed amongst the other two or three churches (if they could get that far to a meeting.) The Seventeen Miles Road Rock congregation was, I believe their headquarters, with their Bible School moved in there too.
Charlotte, whatever the Geerlings’ motives are, it seems to me that they tend to shift their people around like pieces on a chess board. No wonder a lot of people have left in the last 5 years.
As for the northside Taigum church, here’s a link as to the history of that particlar church, written by none less than Freddy Evans, Andrew Evans’ own brother:
http://www.fredandbettyevans.com/about-our-ministry-in-australia/zillmere-assembly-of-god-queensland-1986-1993/
If a smaller church is in some kind of distress, then a larger one who wanted to do the right thing and help out, would either give them an interest free loan and/or send some of their senior people on loan to help out with needed ministry functions, until the crisis was over.
God has not ordained “mergers,” particularly the ones that turn out to be ‘takeovers’. Can you imagine Peter an Paul discussing the ‘takeover’ of the Galatian churches by a church from Antioch or Corinth? Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it? And it is!
Austin Hellier
Question: if a pastor is making a alter call and talking about surrendering to Jesus or if u have never made a decision and then says ‘ if are feeling prompted , that is the Holy Spirit prompting you’!!! Now correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the Holy Spirit only dwell once you are baptised ? so how can the Holy Spirit prompt you when you haven’t made a decision and/or are not baptised yet ?
the day of my salvation i walked into church and felt the love of the Father. it was overwhelming. He was calling me and drawing me to His Presence.
“And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8)
It is the task of the Holy Spirit to convict the sinner before they are saved. Paul teaches us that:
“… if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved…” (Romans 10:9)
Heart-felt belief arises when the Holy Spirit brings conviction of sin upon the soul of an unbeliever. This conviction doesn’t go away until a decision is made. There is also the danger of a spurious conversion, where it is all based on “feelings” but there is no conviction (a hyped up church meeting for instance) where all of the feel-good stuff is present.
This is evidenced by the lack of any change in the person’s lifestyle or beliefs. Genuine repentence is always accompanied by change, and that change is a progressive remoulding of the person, into the image and stature of Christ.
A graphic example of this is portrayed in the Gospels, where Thomas at first, was not among the disciples when Jesus appeared to them early on. Jesus ‘breathed on them’ and said “receive ye the Holy Ghost’. This is where the disciples were regenerated – i.e. born again, but Thomas was not there. He was still in unbelief, as he had not yet seen the risen Lord. (John 20: 21-24)
Eight days later, Jesus made another appearance, and when challenged by Jesus, Thomas fell to his knees in conviction that it really was Jesus! “My Lord and my GOD!”; such an exclamation could only come from the lips of a regenerated man – Thomas was no longer a doubter. (John 20:25-31)
The risen Christ had revealed Himself to Thomas, and that is what must happen to everyone whom the Holy Spirit is drawing into the body of the Church. “You must be born again” Jesus said to Nicodemus (John 3:7) Of course, I’m not talking about a physical sighting of Jesus, as that is not necessary for salvation. This is now the role of the Holy Spirit, to reveal Jesus to sinners, so that they might be saved.
Austin Hellier
God is the potter we are the clay. Totally agree there should be a change when we are born again. we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. However it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance and apart from God we can do nothing
God given vision indeed…! I just watched a utube clip with Gordon Moore of C3 australia..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzIPWHQLydE Quote:”WE’VE ‘formulated’as a result of all of this OUR 20/20 vision”. And “1000 churches is OUR quantitative vision”. Seems as if they just made their own ‘formula’…God didnt have a thing to do with it.