C3 and Hillsong give people the idea that they are still “Pentecostal”. This is not true. Pentecostal preacher David Wilkerson speaks against the Word of Faith and Seeker Sensitive teachers and expose their false methods, practices and teachings.
The sermon is called, “The Gospel of Accomodation”. You can download the sermon here:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4470&commentView=itemComments
Our writers and many of our commentors condemn the Hillsong and C3 movements. Even though the majority of us hold to Pentecostal or Charismatic theology, these large “church” movements do not even reflect the original Pentecostal or Charismatic teachings. Their philosophies and teachings are pagan and their environments are very controlling and abusive (see archives).
While some of us hold more reformed views, our Christian voice is still the same on fundamental issues. But the C3 and Hillsong movements barely resemble the Christian faith. As Wilkerson says, their gospel is “invented in hell”.
“It’s not wrong to pray for growth, but if it’s only to feed human ambition it will change the man into a devil”.
All I can say to that is “2020 vision”…
The problem is that most of these seeker friendly church are not thinking of the same kind of growth as in the Great Commission that is to make and grow disciples. Most are just interested in growth in attendance, membership and financial suppoorters, not caring whether their attendees are truly saved or not. Just the utterance of the sinners prayer is jjust good enough to qualify for salvation and club membership.
I always like to investigate different churches and Time Square Church is hardly any different from C3 or Hillsong. Also I found fault in the church’s statement of faith. I don’t believe you speak in tongues as a sign you are saved, this is what time square church teaches though I do believe in a valid gift of tongues.i also don’t believe is the use of what we perceive as images, drawing and statues of jesus and I believe the bible teaches against such things.
I agree with some things this guy has to say but I also disagree with other things that are not included in this video.
Times Square Church link: http://www.tscnyc.org/statement-of-faith/
Actually Alan, looking at their website, their statement says under point 8:
“The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, according to Acts 2:4, is given to believers who ask for it. The Holy Spirit in a person’s life is evidenced by changes in his life, including a renewed love for God, and people, a commitment to the scriptures and holy living. The spirit filled believer has the capability of speaking with new tongues whether or not he or she chooses to exercise this gifting.”
But back in point6, it also states:
“Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential to personal salvation.”
As you can clearly see, they teach salvation, and the (pentecostal) ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’ as a seperate and distinct experience, after salvation, for those who ask for it.
I cannot see that Times Square church teaches something akin to Revival Centres International (a Bible based cult,) who clearly teach that you MUST speak in tongues in order to be saved. that is unnecessary.
I know that stating this for the record may raise some hackles with brethren who hold a different viewpoint, but I am no cessationist. Let me be clear.
Nor do I condone what these modern day ‘antichrist’ churches have become. Their Pentecostal forebares would disown them publicly and permanently.
Seeing that most of them aren’t around to to that, I am more than happy to do it for them!
I have read their statement of faith but no where does it say that ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues ‘ are essential for salvation but for empowerment in his christian walk. To them it is a second experience.That is expected of them because they are true Pentecostals but they differ from charismatics and shun word of faith and strange fires teachings. But like the reform theology , they hold that salvation and regeneration is solely the work of the Holy Spirit. Other than the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a second experience, I have no other major issue with them and can gladly listen to their sermons but not WOF of C3s and the likes. I am also not a cessationist or Calvinist but I love reading the devotion of John MacArthur and sermons of RC Sproul and Gary Gilley.
These C3s, AOGs and the likes are not even Pentecostals but word of faith charismatics( products of guru K Haggin) . Both their theology are basically of the same extra biblical stuff.The new AOGs were influenced and shaped into what it is today by the late Oral Roberts who accepted K Haggin’s health and wealth prosperity gospel and popularised them in the denomination. I am not a cessationist but certainly will stay far away from these strange fires burners. Having said that, I would say I am more comfortable with the pastors from the more conservative classical Pentecostals like the late David Wilkerson of Times Square and Jim Cymbala of Brooklyn Tabernacle, both of whom have no liking or love for word of faith teachings.
“Our writers and many of our commentors condemn the Hillsong and C3 movements. Even though the majority of us hold to Pentecostal or Charismatic theology, these large “church” movements do not even reflect the original Pentecostal or Charismatic teachings. Their philosophies and teachings are pagan and their environments are very controlling and abusive” (Quoted from the above leader…)
Folks, I just want to comment a little further on this one. I came to Christ in 1978, and instrumental to that was seeing “The Cross and The Switchblade” some 4 years before, during high school. The movie portrayed David Wilkerson’s first foray onto the back streets of New York. Parts of it are still vivd in my memory, even now…
Many people have criticised Wilkerson over the years – some even calling him a false prophet (undeservedly, I believe) and yes, he has made a number of statements that could be construed as “prophecy” of sorts. Well, mature believers will get their Bibles out and under guidence from the Holy Spirit, discern what is flesh and what is Spirit – and that’s the way it should be, regardless of who is standing at the pulpit – and I mean anybody! (1 Corinthians 14:29)
Aside from all of that, I have heard this man preach the everlasting Gospel of salvation fro sinners, I have never heard him flog people for money at any time, and the testimony of thousands of people who knew him personally, many of them “off the streets” in New York, have only a good testimony of his life and doctrine to report.
I don’t believe that the man or the ministry need any justification, so why am I having this little rant on the side? Well, when I compare all of the above to the blatant false prophets that we have in our midst, right here in Australia, there is no comparison. These people have spent decades deceiving the innocent into believing that they are “men and women of God” – well I say PHOOEY to that!
They have lied, they have cheated, they have robbed the people of God of thei time, talents, energy and money – they have watered down the gospel message until there is no more gospel left in their preaching at all – only feel good/get rich stuff, that fools the masses and fills their coffers to overflowing. How long are we going to stand for this? How long are we going to sit back and let this massive end time deception take over our churches and our neighbourhoods?
Well, brethren, I say that enough is enough! It’s time we had our own “Bible Believer’s Conference” – one that goes way beyond the blogoshpere – one that starts to impact churches, one that impacts the nation for righteousness – one that drives the false prophets and their money raking scams back into the basements of their Taj Mahal buildings!
It’s time that we sounded out a clarion call to all those who love Bible truth, and if need be, import a few special speakers,and get the ball roling all the way down the hill – and make sure that it rolls right on over the top of Hill$ong, C3 and every other deceptive organisation on this continent that falsely calls itself a church.
What say you, brothers and sisters? It’s time that the name of Jesus Christ be lifted up way above these pretenders, these sons and daughters of deception, and magnified so that all men will be drawn unto Him!
Yep, send out a clarion call. How much would the call cost I wonder? Better the clarion call goes to Phil the Deputy because he would probably be cheaper than Johnny Mac. But would you have to pay for a first class ticket for Phil” I’ll come and preach against filthy prosperity teachers if the price is right” Johnson?
So let me get this straight. These heroes of yours fly around first class, Johnny Mac has his kids on staff (wow – sounds like something you caped crusaders would foam at the mouth about against re Hillsong and C3. But these guys spend much of their time making money by attacking the prosperity preachers, and making themselves PRETTY DARN PROSPEROUS in the process. So, how much in total does the ever righteous JonnyM make? So he gets paid by these organisations to prepare messages and write books that he gets money for?
And his son-in-law can make nice bucks out of doing the videos?
Sounds like a really great set-up to me. Very prosperous ministry isn’t it. Maybe I should have said Prosperous, cause that’s a great salary.
Read below? Could this possibly be true?
Looks like the way to make money is either be a prosperity preacher, or better still – be a minister who gets prosperous running around telling people how bad the prosperity preachers are!
Is this all funny or sad? What do you think?
So, let’s start another conference shall we? Why do these ministers need such enormous salaries? One day I’m reading about Aussie battlers suffering under the latest budget, and Christians in other countries starving and suffering. But the anti-prosperty preachers are living in incredible prosperity.
Yep, clarion calls. But let’s send one out to some people who can really rough it for the gospel and bare the indignity of business class.
Know anyone like that? I do. Maybe one of you C3watcher dudes could do it while you’re waiting to make it into the big leagues of Weird Fire Conference holding and book-writing.
John Macarthur’s Salary
For “denying himself and picking up his cross” part time, John Macarthur earns more than the President of the United States
Like many corporate leaders John Macarthur is well compensated financially. It’s in the public record that for the 2011 calendar year John Macarthur earned $402,444 for working PART-TIME for Grace To You and $103,000 for The Master’s College and Seminary. That’s more than $500,000, not counting his church salary, book royalties, speaking fees, etc. John Macarthur’s two sons hold the positions of treasurer and director at Grace To You. His Grace To You salary can be seen on page 7 of the link here. Remarkably, for working just part time for Grace To You, John Macarthur earns more than the annual salary of the President of the United States (which is $400,000).
According to the IRS 990 forms submitted by Grace To You and The Master’s College and Seminary for 2011, John Macarthur worked 20 hours/week for Grace To You and 40 hours/week for The Masters College and Seminary. Does he actually work for these corporations 60 hours/week? Assuming he doesn’t work for either of these corporations on the weekends, then he must work on average 12 hours/day Monday through Friday. And I’ve been told by members of Grace Community Church that he claims he spends 40 hours/week studying the Bible, and he travels extensively (first class), plays golf, and writes books…
Other Grace Community Church leaders are also well compensated. For 2011, the Executive Director of Grace To You, Phil Johnson, received $218,788 and Don Green, the Managing Director of Grace To You, earned $200,847 (these men earned more than the annual salary of a US senator). Rufus Harvey, the CFO at Grace To You, was compensated $170,615. Travis Allen, the Director of Internet for Grace To You, was compensated $139,135. It’s in the public record that seven employees at Grace To You were compensated in excess of $150,000 in 2011.
Want to earn a handsome salary? Work your way up the ladder of a “non profit religious corporation!” I wonder what the average annual salary is for those Christians who donate to Grace To You. How do these Grace To You leaders justify these salaries? Do they justify these salaries because they adhere to and obey God’s Word (truth, holiness, charity, self denial), or do they justify these salaries by assessing and setting their worthiness/value based upon what they (or others they employ) have determined the world’s corporations compensate their employees who hold comparable positions (relativity, worldliness, greed, lovers of self)?
The Grace To You 990 form, Schedule O, reveals that they have indeed determined their compensation by employing the world’s ways (which they call “an independent compensation study”).
In a clear conflict of interest, John Macarthur’s Grace To You has given more than $2,000,000 over the last 3 years to a private firm solely owned by Kory Welch, his son-in law. The Welch Group receives approximately $700,000 annually from Grace To You for producing its videos. The Welch Group corporation, I believe, has always won the low bid for this lucrative contract. The CFO at Grace To You, Rufus Harvey, told me that there were other bidders for these contracts, but when I asked him to reveal the names of the other bidders, he replied to me, “We don’t have to disclose that information by law.” Don’t Christians who donate their hard earned money to Grace To You have a right to know these details regardless of whether or not the law requires their disclosure? If The Welch Group has been fairly awarded this video production contract every year (as the low bidder), then why not disclose the identity of the other bidders? Do other bidders even exist? ”
……………………………..
I’ll admit. This info surprised me.
So, anyone gonna go to the TV networks about this? How about a four part blog series on greedy celebrity calvinist preachers?
No, i think you’ll probably tiptoe through the tulips in this case….
Hey Q – thanks for the heads up – I’m afraid that I’m just not in the same league – try as I might, I just couldn’t find a ladder that went that high…
What I’m advocating is a fledgling, grass roots affair with locals speaking out, and others from overseas (if they can make it and if we can afford them) contributing to it.
Importing the big name preachers from the US has always seemed like a good idea at the time, but many of them have promoted their own “isms” or have used the invitation to try and start up a branch office, or a franchise.
AOG, Foursquare, Church of God, Methodists, Presbytereans, Anglican, Baptists, in fact every denomination who has come to our shores HAS come from overseas – all of them… I don’t think we would be looking for a new denomination, or even a “move of God” as such – just give me Bible truth and vacuum clean the carpets of the house of the Lord, and get rid of all of this ‘angel’s dust’ nonsense that passes for modern Christianity
Being something grass roots, we would invariably need someone who is of the same mind at that level. High flying preachers,of whatever brand name you’d care to mention, may not have any sympathy for a small group of ‘watchmen’, who were just starting out. No “tulips” to tiptoe through there for me… (I know what ‘tulip’ means)
No – if the big boys were to come here for a conference, they would expect thousands to attend, and may want 5 star digs, and even bring their own musicians, support people etc – way out of our league and budget, I’m afraid. Priced out of the market…
So we’ll just have to be happy with each other’s company and maybe some input from one or two humble saints who have the call to come – the clarion call, that is…
So, Q, are you thinking of answering the call ???
Q, do you really think the “I know C3 aren’t perfect…. but what about you/them, you’re/they’re not so perfect either” distraction tactic will make people forget about what is really going on here?
C3 has only got away with this for so long via DECEPTION. They’re still omitting the whole story re Kong Hee to get extra funding from the sheeple. Has Grace to You ministries ever sunk that low?
I don’t particularly like well-known speakers e.g. MacArthur having their family as support crew, getting huge salaries, book deals and great fringe benefits either. I can’t imagine the apostles getting that kind of lifestyle.
That has not been unnoticed by other people online either. I could give you an example of that but the pastor who spoke against the “cash for speeches” isn’t on sermonaudio any more unfortunately. Churches are called to support their leaders though. There should be a happy balance somehow. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9%3A6-15&version=NKJV
Grace to You provides all their sermons/conferences online for free. Quite a few older books are available to read for FREE on http://www.openlibrary.org, e.g. search for MacArthur, R.C.Sproul (reformed theology perspective though). Will Pringle ever put his books on that website? Other Word-of-Faith preachers have, why not him?
A lot are also on Youtube. I have never heard *once* MacArthur needing music in the background. Can you provide any evidence of Grace to You ministries using the “if you wanna be blessed by God, empty your wallets” while playing mood music (to keep people in altered consciousness) throughout MacArthur’s sermons/speeches?
I have listened to plenty of other preachers/lecturers other than MacArthur over the years so don’t accuse me of being a MacAthur-ist. e.g. Some speakers are better at dealing with certain personal issues biblically.
I have not heard one decent speaker need music to make his message sound “good” to listeners. NOT ONE. God’s Word speaks for itself. They want their audience to think and *learn*. Master manipulators never want that to happen.
@ Q – It seems you’ve swallowed the same bitter pill as our erstwhile friend Bones.
Although it could have been viewing that prosperity/WOF shonk, T.D.Jakes on that Youtube clip recommended by Gordy that tipped you over the edge?
Or maybe you just need a Snickers….
Your homework today can be finding the full disclosure of Jakes’ income? His fee for a C3 event about 9-10 years ago included 1st class travel for he and his staff (either that or pay his fuel bill for a private plane). Pick a number, it starts with a 6 and just add 5 zeroes – it’s less painful that way. Some lessons are well-learned, don’t invest money if your church doesn’t do their own due diligence before booking their speakers.
And consider the cost of hiring enormous venues (even though you have an enormous church), all this requiring holding other expensive events (fund-raising dinners) during to the year to cover the costs and the “vision”.
Of course, J.Johns, Houston, Giglio, Israel Horton, they are paid a fee and travel costs, aren’t they? There you go, more homework…..
You would have to give a “heads-up” to Macarthur for holding his conferences at their church. And yes, it’s big enough to hold its 8000+ members, who don’t tithe but are generous anyway because they are taught biblically about giving, (had to throw that in).
By the way, who needs the paparazzi when “twitterers” put it all for free on the C3 “hub”? Wow that dinner must have cost a motza!
Royal Hall of Industries? Can you check how much it costs to hire Q? Need to raise some funds for my next 1st Class ticket🙂
Berean, I may have shared this one before, but years ago, when I was at a COC church in north Brisbane, I ran the tape library. I came across John Avinzinni and his WOF money preaching tapes (although I didn’t recognise them as such at that time) and after listening to the first one, I began to “run the presses” on them, and recommend them to the congregation. Business at the tape loibrary was looking up!
Well, that was Sunday morning, when I got there on Sunday night, the pastor gently took me aside, and explained a few things to me about the ‘ministry’ of John Avinzinni.
The mere fact the he ‘demanded’ $10,000 up front PER MEETING was a jolt back to reality for me. as well as his horrendously false teachings on “God’s economics” – the end result of which always seemed to make him fabulously rich, while the sheeple became very poor. The church and its leadership had ‘tested the spirits’ behind this man, and found them to be greedy and full of half truths anf outright falsehoods.
The only mistake they had made was to inadvertently leave his materials lying around for well meaning, but ignorant folks like me to find.
It’s the ‘bird trap’ approach, where the false ministry makes sure that their advance material always sounds good – almost Biblical, but with some very subtle flaws. Each of the ‘good things’ is like a bread crumb along a pathway, but that trail of apparently ‘good things’ leads the newbie ‘bird’ enjoys the crumbs, but the last few bread crumbs will lead you right into that trap – and then the fun begins – control, manipulation, intimidation, false prophecy and heresy, all come into play!
It takes some discernment and experience in the light of God’s word to expose them, and I just didn’t have it back then – it’s a growing thing… believe me – you Avanzinni nothing yet!
@ Austin – It seems that the doctrines of grace stick in the craw of some, a pity really. Accusations of being a “Calvinist”? Well, if that means I’m one who upholds the sovereignty of God in all things, I guess I have to wear the title.
However, the truth is, our identity is found in Christ – as is most of those who comment here.
Ephesians 1:314 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.”
“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
The funny thing is, Q quite happily throws countless numbers of believers under the bus, particularly charismatic believers who hold to those same doctrines of grace i.e. Calvinism/Reformed.
I would suggest Q, you check out New Frontiers churches with Terry Virgo and Adrian Warnock for starters. I’m no longer in a charismatic church but I have no problem with those who are, no problem with those who are faithful with the gospel, who preach Christ and not themselves. Those “marked as true teachers” for rightfully handling God’s Word and not “false teachers draw away disciples after themselves”.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2005/11/what-is-reformed-charismatic/
Berean – I must confess that I have problems with the doctrines of grace too – predestination for example. Everything is predestinated from God’s perspective, as the Lord exists outside of our space/time. For Him, it has already happened, is happeneing and will continue to happen until the second coming of Christ.
For me, as a finite being, it is hard to see that some are predestinated to one fate or the other, without much choice (and therefore ‘free will’ involved) – now, this may really spark a row, but as I see it, God presents us with the Gospel and then we have a choice. I don’t believe that any form of human effort can save you, but to deny the element of free will as a major component in salvation, beggars belief.
Please, I am not attacking your beliefs, but I certainly am questioning some of them.
I think that some of the problem of different perspectives lays in the differences in which ‘grace’ is outworked. If you come from the Pentecostal/Evangelical stream, then you believe that, subsequent to salvation you will go and ‘work for God’. This is not in terms of self justifying works, but is a part of the outworking of the Gospel.
Jesus said that greater works would we do than He has done, but many deny that, and sit back on their Calvanistic haunches, waiting for ‘providence’ to sort it all out for them. Providence never did any man’s work for him, and if the whole of Christendom had taken that view, then there would have been no evangelistic missions work under William Carey and the Baptists, or the Salvation Army, or the early Pentecostal people in the 1920’s either. World wide missions would not exist…
The doctrines of grace, as embracing predestination would have rendered all such efforts as unnecessary, but the preaching of the Gospel, to a lost and dying world constrains some of us in that we must go – even if it is just down to the shopping mall to hand out some tracts…
I am not being nasty or laying any traps, but these questions have remained unanswered for me for decades, and yet I don’t have a problem receiving you as a sister in Christ, despite our different perspectives…
Please – no more links (not impressed with Grudem, Piper et al) – try and lay it out as simply as you can – eh?
@ Austin – you say “Please – no more links (not impressed with Grudem, Piper et al) – try and lay it out as simply as you can – eh?”
Grudem and Piper are both charismatic. And did I link to them?
The links above are for for Q, and links can be substantial “evidence” when it comes to outlining truth vs error.
Especially Twitter and Instagram – they do love boast about God’s “blessing”!
I think it’s coming back to bite them.
Grudem and Piper may well be ‘charismatic’ but I think that that is a dangerous and ambiguous term. For me, the charismatic movement was started back in the mid 1960’s and after many years of investigation, I believe that I can say with confidence that “all roads lead to Rome”.
The evidence being that all such ‘churches’ that founded themselves on that sandy landscape, have now succumbed to major deceptions in the present day. COC, CLC, CCC, just to name a few – they all had charismatic (not Pentecostal) influences, and when I look back at their influences, I see the likes of Katherine Khulman, Copeland, Hinn and many other deceivers, who were and still are on the “Roman road”…
I wasn’t asking you to totally abstain from links – that would be hypocritical, but I just wanted to hear you outline your beliefs yourself – the ban is hereby removed…🙂
I tend to agree with Austin, regarding greater works will we do, than Jesus did, as He has left us the Holy Spirit. We can’t do anything apart from God and sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit. as for the Calvanists view on salvation, I don’t really agree with that as God has given everyone a free will. I dont think that that issue is of that much importance though, as there’s a lot we won’t really know till we get to heaven.
Dear lady, I understand some of what you say. However, I am familiar with George Muller’s works, but could never tell by peering through his front door that he had Calvinistic leanings. I can also run with predestination from God’s perspective, but we are here in the real world and don’t know the beginning of a matter from the end of it.
As for the ‘greater works’ Jesus spoke of – yes they must embrace the Gospel as Christ only had some 3.5 years for effective mnistry, but the Holy Spirit has had the last 2000 years – and we are part of that history. Some would argue that the ‘greater works’ were in fact the same works performed by Christ, but in greater number and magnitude of effect.
I am also aware of Tony Miano’s story as I read it online months ago, but once again, would never have picked him for a Calvinist.
I think that there is much in the way of ‘history’ where protestants of previous generations did terrible things to each other, in the name of God, and perhaps that history has blinded some of us to the other side of the issue. I’ve read the horror stories of what Calvinists and Annabaptists did to each other – enuf said…
“Calvinistic haunches’😉 – well, I wasn’t referring to you spefically, but here’s a story that happened in my own home town when iIwas young in the Lord…
Old Reeny Humphries (now deceased) was host to a Presbyterian annual event, as it was their turn that year (1979). Meetings were arranged, food was prepared – but – no one turned up!!! And the reason? Everyone forgot? Probably. The answer given to other church folk in the town for the ‘non event’ was – “it was providential that such an event not take place at this time…”
Even now, it all seems a bit silly, and still causes me to chuckle when I remember it. Reeny Humphries was a dear old saint, who was loved by all who knew her, and was sorely missed when she passed away, so there is no disrepect to the lady in question – just bewilderment as to the “explanation”?
Of course, the doctrines of grace by no means hang on the outcome of this one event, but the explanation does seem to make some of those people descend back on to their ‘haunches’ a little…🙂
At the end of the day, my concerns are your concerns, and neither do I have an agenda with things Pentecostal – I too hate the manner in which these ‘false profit’ organisations get away with it, and that is where their (sinful?) free will may come into it.
They have deliberately and knowingly decided to take the stance they have taken and there is no excuse for them, and unless they repent, they may well find themselves on the wrong end of Matthew 7:
“Depart from me you that work iniquity – I never knew you…” vs 23
It’s interesting to trace links back these days to the “Toronto Blessing” – something we were heavily exposed to at C3, with multiple visits from Rodney Howard-Browne for a few years.
We saw the false fruit of that movement at Holy Trinity Brompton on a visit to London. Saw Nicky Gumbel preach, saw the bodies “hit the floor”, it was a roller-coaster ride for a few years before we left – though while the overt “charismania” certainly died down, the seeker-driven theme church gained momentum.
“though while the overt “charismania” certainly died down, the seeker-driven theme church gained momentum.”
…and maybe the ‘charismania’ was the temporary smoke screen, intended by the false prophets who promoted it, and the end result (seeker driven ‘churches) was the overall intended goal of the so called “laughing revival? I think so.
I too saw a church in Alice springs destroyed by the antics of a ‘pastor’ and an ‘elder’ (see part 2 of my testimony: Beware of False Prophets at TNP) who spent a week in Adelaide with RHB and crew…
http://thenarrowingpath.com/2013/12/05/personal-testimony-beware-of-false-prophets-part-2/
I spent some 2 years there in 1998/99 helping to mop up after the ‘revival’… I know what you mean…
Berean, I can accept a lot of what you say, it’s just that some Calvinistic folks have put to me the idea that we are so deadin our sins, that we can have NOTHING to do with the salvation of our souls – which seems errnat and unbalanced.
For them, it is all of grace, and none of works, but put in such a way that “sovereign grace” distorts that human element of free will in salvaton, thus leaving the enquiring sinner at a loose end, wondering what will happen next…
I have heard them say this,and of the course those who seem hung up on ‘election’ will walk away, saying things like “if you were of the ‘elect’ then what I just said would make perfect sense to you…” but in reality providing no answers…
Maybe that is an aberrant form of Calvinism and not the norm?
I believe that what you said earlier may be closer to the truth:
“Where the bible says God ‘foreknew”, is he looking down through the corridors of time and seeing our choosing Him?”
Yes,seeing that at some point we must make that choice – and no, I don’t believe that God is ‘still learning’, – it is us who are learning about God and the fact that He exists outside space/time…
Therefore coming to groups with an infinite God, who dwells in the infinity of eternity (no space/time constraints,) will always present us with conundrums, and some will see them for that, and others will try to explain them in finite terms – which is impossible. It’s almost like Luther said – “we are both sinners and saints at the same time…”
Doctrines arminianism/calvinism and cessationism are all important issues which we encourage Christians to discuss. However, we would like these sites to stay focused on addressing the blatantly wrong doctrines in these Word of Faith cults.
Please have these debates but not here.
@Churchwatcher.
Sorry, I just saw your comment. I apologise.
@ Q – “Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to”.
Not to get off topic, where did I say that, so I can correct it?
“Still, it’s not the issue here on this blog, is it? If only it was, but what’s accepted as being in and of the faith, doesn’t include being wolves/false teachers/false prophets?”
No it certainly doesn’t – and I take your point Churchwatcher – doctrinal debates could string out over days or even weeks – I agree, but points of these different perspectives will pop up every so often and in order to maintain some continuity, you’ll have to accomodate them to a small degree…
Otherwise why be here at all? If Bible truth is to be the most formidable weapon for the fight against false doctrine, then we should be having the debate – even if it is not approariate to have that here in full…
As a final word on Acts 13:48, here’s a link to a commentary that discusses the meaning of the word ‘appointed’ as used in that verse, and I’ll leave it at that:
http://www.freewill-predestination.com/acts13.html
“I agree, but points of these different perspectives will pop up every so often and in order to maintain some continuity, you’ll have to accomodate them to a small degree…”
True. And we have. Like we said, we would encourage people to open their bibles and take their debates elsewhere.
Q I am so grateful for c3churchwatch and hillsongchurchwatch, they have opened my eyes. I go to a denominational church now. They are not carnal, self seeking, worldly, uncaring, superficial, money hungry, full of themselves like c3 and hillsong. I wish these sites existed a long time ago, then I wouldn’t have wasted so many years of my life!
Perhaps the good Lord foresaw the typo, and very “graciously’ allowed you to make it in the space provided at the CW blogsite?
OK CW – I’m done…
The earnings of pastors, especially the top dogs ( that’s what they like to think of themselves) is very concerning to me. When I give money it’s not to support the lavish lifestyles of the “elite” of the ones in charge. It’s to support the work of God. How dare they take the money I give to elevate themselves and their lifestyles
Here are a range of talks on the topic of preaching from the late Dr Lloyd-Jones, whose travel habits and salary I have no information about. However, I think these talks might shed some light on the problems we see in what is touted as Christian ‘preaching’ in the modern church, but very often is not.
http://www.mljtrust.org/collections/preaching-and-preachers/
The Thing I regret most in my life is the time I spent at c3
Annette – up above, you’ll find a link to my testimony online at The Narrowing Path – I put it htere so people can see just how many times a genuine believer can be waylaid and sidetracked by these false prophets.
It’s not there for my own glory as I don’t deserve that – only Jesus should be glorified, but follow the link and have a read.
Parts 1 and 2 are there, just for folks like you, so that you can also be encouraged that your time was not wasted, and the more skilled you become in knowing God’s word, the more able you’ll be to warn others.
I did it late last year because I wanted others to avoid the pitfalls that Satan has for us along the way. You can’t rescue everybody, because not everybody will listen.
Thanks Austin, I will read it tomorrow.