Tags
Blaney, c3, c3 church marion, C3 church marion scandal, c3 leadership, C3 Marion Scandal, Christian City Church, christian city church marion, court, Jude Blaney, paedophile, pervert, Phil Pringle, Pringle, Trevor John Russell, Trevor Russell
We will be covering two scandals at C3 Marion in this article.
SCANDAL 1
This first article will be looking at an important conversation on our C3 SCANDALS page.
As you start browsing the C3 Scandals page, a few commentors have raise an issue about an alleged scandal down at C3 Church Marion. We have received fragments of this situation all over our site. (If anyone can provide a thorough explanation of the situation, please email us at c3churchwatch@hotmail.com.)
Before looking at the situation, we thought it would be smart to look at a C3 Marion “Church” defender upholding the integrity of C3 Marion and their “Pastor” Jude,
“We are a C3 church and we don’t judge our success by how many people we have coming. All those people that come and go don’t understand our vision and they are critical and jealous of Pastor Jude’s ministry. He is wise and has helped many be better Christians teaching them about being in church every week, bringing an offering and submitting to godly leadership. It doesn’t matter we only have 60-70 people but what’s in our hearts. Without Pastor Jude our church wouldn’t even be there.”
Source: Marty, C3 Scandals, C3 Church Watch, https://c3churchwatch.com/c3-scandals/#comment-10217, December 13, 2013 at 7:45 am. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
In defending C3 and Jude, we asked the C3 member what the gospel is. Here are their comments:
I rebuke your comments and think you all need to repent and ask God to forgive you.C3 is not old fashioned at all. It does preach the true gospel and that includes Pastor Jude Blaney. Many people at our church are comitted to the gospel, are sticking at the church and that doesn’t mean we are a cult – just are committed to the gospel.
Source: Marty, C3 Scandals, C3 Church Watch, https://c3churchwatch.com/c3-scandals/#comment-11378, February 4, 2014 at 7:19 am. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
The Gospel is living your best life now… not in heaven but here on earth. C3 Marion is an awesome church and Pastor Jude Blaney is an awesome pastor who is taking the church to higher and higher and higher levels. All my friends from the church who seen this site criticising us are more determined to stick with pastor Jude no matter what. We don’t care what you say. People who say we are finished because we are having to sell the church building don’t know Pastor Jude and don’t know us. Watch this space!
Source: Marty, C3 Scandals, C3 Church Watch, https://c3churchwatch.com/c3-scandals/#comment-11865, February 20, 2014 at 1:01 am. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
Where did you think Pastor Jude and “Marty” got this eternally damning gospel from? We’ll give you a clue.
There is nothing more scandalous than getting involved in a place that presents itself as a Christian church but sends its members to hell. Another commentor offered their observations on “Pastor” Jude.
I was a member of C3 Marion for quite a while and am still in contact with many people I made friends with there. It hasn’t grown at all over the 13 years Jude Blaney has been in control despite lots of words from Blaney himself about how “switched on and relevant” he is. I left because his preaching was really weak and not relevant to me. Most of CCC seem to be in a time-warp – old fashioned teaching that’s got very little of the true gospel – its just a string of meaningless platitudes. Its not the gospel – its a hard program of religious works. Many people that attend are people like Marty – you’d have to describe them as simple and vulnerable to religious control and manipulation.
Source: Anon, C3 Scandals, C3 Church Watch, https://c3churchwatch.com/c3-scandals/#comment-10373, December 27, 2013 at 6:24 am. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
It is true for “Anon” to say, has “old fashioned teaching that’s got very little of the true gospel”. This is the Christian gospel:
“Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.”
1 Corinthians 15:1-5
If you attend C3 Marion and think “the Gospel is living your best life now”, then you need to leave your church, cling to Christ and His cross and repent of your sins so you may be spared from God’s coming wrath.
SCANDAL 2
On topic of “your best life now”, Trevor Russell found his “best life now” by becoming a C3 pastor and living a life of immoral pleasure. This second scandal can also be followed on the same page:
“What about CcC Marion in Adelaide who are refusing to pay compensation for a number of young men abused by convicted paedophile Pastor Trevor Russell. Pastor Jude Blayney, the cults present leader is desperately fighting to keep control of a diminishing congregation with diminishing financial resources. Speculation surrounds when fight will turn to flight for Blaney.”
Source: Champ145, C3 Scandals, C3ChurchWatch, http://c3churchwatch.com/c3-scandals/#comment-7503, August 1, 2013 at 2:39 pm. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
Another witness followed up with this:
C3 Marion announced to its people in October 2013 that it has settled out of court for $500,000 for the paedophilia victims..History of C3: Jude Blaney kicked out Peter Vacca (the founder of Bethesda Movement when he was sick) and then turned the church in to C3. All the property built up by Peter Vacca and goodwilled members is now under Blaney’s control. C3 announced they are liquidating their property to pay the settlement and debts massed by Blaney over the years for African “mission trips” where the pastors stayed in luxuary hotels and went white-water rafting on their days off, leased cars, wages and long-service leave. Seriously days-off…. I bet David Livingston didn’t have “days-off” when in Africa. Blaney has turned a once mighty church into a big belly flop. with just 60-70 adults attending the biggest service.I’m not happy with the way this has all turned out.
Source: Nathan Digeaux, C3 Scandals, C3ChurchWatch, https://c3churchwatch.com/c3-scandals/#comment-9696, November 20, 2013 at 2:38 am. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
Nathan later said,
What about C3 Marion scandal in the side part so more people know about the mess in Adelaide Jude Blaney has created? Its not just about Phil Pringel – its the incompetant “pastors” he has let become a part of the franchise. I wonder how much $ will go missing when the liquidation happens – some will go to Pringle probably.
Source: Nathan Digeaux, C3 Scandals, C3ChurchWatch, https://c3churchwatch.com/c3-scandals/#comment-9696, November 20, 2013 at 2:48 am. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
A third witness piped in:
“I WILL NEVER NEVER BE ABLE TO FORGIVE TREVOR RUSSELL FOR THE IMPACT HE HAS HAD ON MY LIFE AND THE LIFE OF MY HUSBAND WHO SUFFERED AT HIS HANDS.”
Source: Maria Claire, C3 Scandals, C3ChurchWatch, https://c3churchwatch.com/c3-scandals/#comment-15442, April 29, 2014 at 1:50 pm. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
So what happened?
Here are some news articles that have covered this issue. It frustrates us how C3 always denies any responsibility for their actions.
Paedophile confesses to molesting 5 more boys
A convicted paedophile has confessed in the South Australian Supreme Court to molesting five teenage boys up to 30 years ago.
Trevor John Russell, 57, of Stansbury has already pleaded guilty to sexually abusing four teenage boys at church camps in the early 1980s.
But the case took a new turn today, when Russell confessed to abusing five other boys in the 1970s and ’80s.
Prosecutor Karen Ingleton said one of those victims had agreed to let the judge take his case into account when sentencing Russell.
But Ms Ingleton asked the judge not to include the other four new victims in her sentence, to give the men the opportunity to have their day in court.
She said some of the victims could not be contacted, while others were still coming to terms with the sudden confession.
Source: ABC News, Paedophile confesses to molesting 5 more boys, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-01-17/paedophile-confesses-to-molesting-5-more-boys/2174270, 17/01/2007. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
Here is another article on the issue,
CLAIMS CHURCH FAILED TO ACT ON ‘PERVERT’
CHURCH elders allowed a paedophile pastor and youth leader to ply his evil trade by failing to act on repeated warnings over his “inappropriate behaviour” with young boys, court documents claim.
Trevor John Russell is serving a nine-year sentence for molesting boys while a pastor at Christian City Church Marion – which has denied that it owes the victims any compensation.
Three men, now in their early 40s, have launched a civil claim against the church over the abuse they suffered at the hands of Russell at church-run youth camps in the Flinders Ranges in the late 1970s and early 1980s when they were aged 12 and 13.
In their District Court statement of claim, the men say three female church members had complained to senior church staff that Russell was “a pervert” who had behaved inappropriately towards young boys.
The victims all claim to have suffered ongoing psychological and psychiatric problems because of their childhood abuse, including post traumatic stress disorder.
The church denies it was responsible or liable for the actions of Russell.
The civil case has been adjourned for a further hearing in March next year.
Source: Andrew Dowell, Claims church failed to act on ‘pervert’, The Advertiser, http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,21500921-2682,00.html, December 23, 2009 12:01am. (Accessed 22/05/2014.)
You would think Phil Pringle and his leadership would have learnt the first time.
C3 Church Watch 
An active, current member states:
“The Gospel is living your best life now… not in heaven but here on earth.”
If that is what c3 is teaching throughout their movement, I’m happy to turn my back on them completely, with the exception of one or two I know of.
What absolute GARBAGE!
I totally agree with you, Squidaloopa. It is absolute garbage. We are to die to self, and lose our life so we can gain true life. I’ve totally cut myself off from anyone connected to these c3, and I’m so glad I did. They are totally deceived and wicked.
Berean, I would agree with you – it is the “little people’ who are often the heart and the backbone of the local church. I have met them, fellowshipped with them, been a friend to them, and they to me, in times of need, and of course I would include those good shepherds amongst the flock as the ones who fulfill that role most often.
It is these very same people who are currently being disenfranchised by the mega churches of our day. They stick to the word no matter what (up to the light that they have), they aren’t very good at tithing or toeing the party line which is why they find themselves back out in the cold every so often.
Nevertheless, they are the ones who take the stand for the faith, regardless of the consequences, and are happy to be identified with the true Jesus Christ.
As it says in Hebrews:
“Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Let us go forth therefore unto Him without the camp, bearing his reproach.”
(Hebrews 13:12, 13)
If you truly belong to the Lord then sooner or later, you will find yourself ‘without the camp’ of the false religious movements of our day, and you will not be ashamed to be there… because that’s where the ‘little people’ will be…
It is also the hallmark of a genuine church to be missions minded. Giving of yourselves as a church towards others (here and abroad) who have physical needs (food, clothes, housing) who are in prison for the Gospel or even facing certain death for their faith, is the outworking of the Gospel towards the ‘household of faith’.
“Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them ; and them which suffer adversity , as being yourselves also in the body.” (Hebrews 13:3)
When I was a young believer, many of the churches back then had this as part of their main focus, but nowdays you never hear of any genuine missionary endeavours coming from these large and ‘successful’ churches – just the latest “church plant” which consists of more of the same – rock music bands, money, and ego mania from the pulpit, with the mainemphasis on money, youth and ‘leadership’.
Truly, the “church of tares” is manifesting itself amongst the wheat, and it may not be too long before the real harvest of the Lord comes and seperates them for good…
“I’ve been there when the claims are made that these small churches are “dead” ”
Yes – heard that same comment come off the c3 pulpit, or if they’re saying something negative it’s always “not this church, the one down the road”.
On a number of times I’ve heard churches who don’t practice prosperity doctrine, ie accept the attitude of “as poor as a church mouse” – be ridiculed and mocked.
“Truly, the “church of tares” is manifesting itself amongst the wheat, and it may not be too long before the real harvest of the Lord comes and seperates them for good…”
As I’ve said before, I’m wondering is the move away from these churches is actually greater than those going in…
Berean – I believe that anything founded on money and deception will ultimately fail. The world may well be headed for another GFC (money crash) and these ‘churches’ that have taught on ‘prosperity’ for so long will fall with it.
The last financial crash affected many parts of the world, but we were more or less immune to it at that time, because of our trading position with China (the mining boom) but that won’t be there to shield our economy next time.
People who have taught a false version of “faith” and “prosperity” may well see their so called ministries crack and crumble, due to the inability of their financially broke congregants being able to sustain them any longer. From what I’ve seen here and other places online, there are many people who are already stressing over the “false visions” of their wayward leaders, as they struggle with the normal family related bills, and also feel guilty over the weekly ‘tithing sermon’ that is now part of the standard money preachers’ repertoare.
While it is possible that the leaders may survive and try and brazenly maintain that, despite what has happened, they are still a ‘testimony of God’s provision’. This ‘provision’ may, in reality, be more likely to come from either the income from investment properties they own, or fleeing to some Pacific Island where life is cheaper and easier than mainland Australia could be at that time.
Whatever the outcome for them, those who are forced out of the collapsing mega church system will then have to make their own arrangements. It is during the hard times that the Lord often shines through the darkness, and with the false prophet ministries out of the way or bankrupt, the true church of Christ can then rise on the ashes of the former carnal churches and their wayward ministries.
Harsh words? Yes they are – we need to speak the truth in love so that the people of
God are not deceived by the current plethora of sham churches, and are not left in isolation during a period which may see the worst global conditions in history develop and grow before our very eyes…
Even so, come Lord Jesus…
I’m so glad for the difficult times I’ve been through. God has been so faithful and my faith is growing, so I’m not scared or worried about the future, because God is faithful and will look after us and help us, no matter what happens
Good for you Annette – trials help our faith to grow, and as James 1:2,3 says:
“2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations.
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience.”
Also,Peter the apostle tells us in 2 Peter 1:3-9:
“3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
There is a Godly pattern for growth, and as you can see, it is about the real treasure from God’s word – no hype, false gospel or money preaching in either of those passages of scripture…
But those who have fallen into the blindness of the Pharisees, and their self righteousness, Peter says:
“9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.”
…and so they fail to repent of that blindness, they revert back to the legalism of the Law for their justification, instead of Christ.
Finally, James goes on in chapter 3 of his letter, to contrast the difference between Godly wisdom, which is from above, to that of man’s wisdom:
” 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.”
That’s why the false prophet’s church eventually falls apart, partly because of its false foundations on which it was built (a man’s vision, and not Christ, the chiief cornerstone), and partly because the word of God is not honoured or observed as in being rightly divided and put into practice day to day amongst the believers.
So human nature (the flesh) comes to the fore and wreaks havoc, in terms of money grubbing, ego mania, wrong emphasis and church splits – seeker sensitive, watered down gospel false prophecy and cultishness are the outworkings of all such backslidden “churchianity…”
Amen! Preach it Berean
I feel for Maria Claire, and the hurt she’s suffered, but did you seriously use that comment about her never being able to forgive, in an article condemning a church for not preaching the gospel? In what part of the gospel does unforgiveness take place?
Here’s a couple:
“The LORD WILL NOT SPARE him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven”.Deut29:20
and
“Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth”.Amos9:8
and VERY IMPORTANTLY…This saying which is ignored by some ‘preachers’….
“but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit NEVER HAS FORGIVENESS, but is guilty of an eternal sin “Mark3:29
Dissection of your comment:
*”I feel for Maria Claire” – is that all? What about wanting to DO something to help her if that was at all possible?
* “and the hurt she’s suffered” what about the wrong C3Church has done to her? Where is the personal ownership in that statement?
* “but did you seriously use that comment” – what a discrediting, belittling, invalidating and condescending attitude in that short phrase! Ad hominem attack alert!
* “about her never being able to forgive” – blaming the victim ONLY. Would she be committing this sin if she had not been wronged in the first place?
* “in an article condemning a church for not preaching the gospel?” When has C3church preached the WHOLE Gospel of repentance (sorrow for sins/ turning away from sins) + faith in Jesus Christ? A link to one sermon that does this like the apostle Peter did in Acts 2 would be greatly appreciated.
* ” In what part of the gospel does un-forgiveness take place?” When Jesus condemns those who refuse to believe in Him, who prefer darkness to light. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-3-17_3-21/
One trait those people who reject Christ hold in common is deception.
spot on..there was more ‘outrage’ about c3 false preaching than any compassion for humanity…typical
Phil asks……”In what part of the Bible does unforgiveness take place”?
How many thieves did Jesus forgive when He was on the Cross? I believe it was only one of them! Why only one? Wasn’t it because only one repented????
Did the other one remain then UNFORGIVEN!!!!!!!
LUKE 17:3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him, AND IF HE REPENTS, FORGIVE HIM…………..”!!!!!!
There is a comment by Andrew Mackinnon about forgiveness on this site which is one of the most erudite and RATIONAL statements on the subject I have read…… perhaps you might find it so as well.
Right… Andrew Mackinnon. The guy who made this site:
http://www.phil-pringle-the-c3-church-satanist.com/
Oh my that website is WAY too extreme. I think it’s only fair for PP in this instance to be looking at defamation. Though when it comes to doctrinal matters, we in the church are to be critiquing.
As for the hand signal, it depends on the attitude, spirit, if you’ve got carpel tunnel etc…I mean I’ve seen heaps of preachers do it when pointing, it’s not deliberate.
I note that you chose to attack someone personally rather than the ISSUE! Phil asked a question and I provided an answer from scripture. I do not know, nor have I ever met Andrew McKinnon but you clearly have shown by your response that you have a personal problem with him and choose to let that override the ISSUE which Phil raised.
And squidaloopa, you too have decided to attack a person rather than to address the original question and the answer. Please stick to the ISSUE. Attempting to shut down a discussion by a personal attack on someone who had nothing whatsoever to do with the question OR my answer other than to be cited as a bit of side-reading which may have been of interest, only serves to make me wonder about your motives.
If you have a personal problem with Mr.McKinnon and do not agree with his views that is for you to decide…………. I am pretty sure that the appropriate way to handle that would have been to respond to that comment when Mr. McKinnon first posted it! I have no problem with people having differing views on matters and regardless of who wrote the post I cited, nothing will change the BIBLICAL truth of it.
Instead of making a statement about someone’s “strange ideas” it would be much more rational and helpful to the debate if you wrote a Biblically based response to the particular question and answer at hand.
Phil asked a question, I gave an answer in good faith and you have chosen to ignore the ISSUE. Very unhelpful.
Having sat in C3 churches for years listening to PASTORS preach that arthiritis was a sign of unforgiveness in peoples’ lives and having dismissed it as a load of nonsense, I for one have no interest in hearing that view resurrected. Can you just please stick to the ISSUE!!!!!!
I accept all you have said and thank you for the explanation. I’m now sorry I referred back to a previous post by him because it has hijacked the debate on the very important issue of “forgiveness”.
I wish to reinterate (and back to Phil’s original question) – only ONE thief was forgiven by Jesus when he was on the Cross. Does anyone honestly believe that Jesus just willy-nilly forgives everyone of everything no matter whether they have repented or not? That will be good news to some of the worst of mankind I’m sure. It’s a ludicrous argument and one which is NOT upheld by the Bible.
Forgiveness is only to be given WHEN and IF there is repentance!!!!!
Hi Kreewater
Yeah it wasn’t meant to come across like a personal attack, I never had that intent.
It was in line with Berean’s note of the muscle injury. I mean after several kids my wife can hardly grasp something firmly – imagine what that could be like of unattended!
As for the forgiveness issue, I’ll have to probe the Scriptures and reply later.
That site is hilarious. I was thinking it was all some kind of Monty Pythonesque spoof.
So, he’s serious??
I’m disappointed now in Pringle. If someone wrote that about me I’d be rolling on the floor laughing. 13 points to a mission statement? 33 paintings? Funniest thing I’ve read all day.
“In what part of the gospel does unforgiveness take place?”
The part where that white-washed wall Phil Pringle fronts up on the Day of Judgement to have God inform him that he never knew him, and the part where he is subsequently consigned to a place of everlasting torment where his worm will not die and his fire will not be quenched. (Did you know that the reason false teachers never talk about hell is because they find it too confronting, since at some level they dimly comprehend that is where they are headed?)
Judging by your comments here, you should get an excellent view of all that, because you will be standing in the same queue as Pringle (along with all those other “bright, relevant, and contemporary” individuals who received their reward on earth by having lived their “best lives”).
There seem to be a few issues with this article.
First of all, the gospel preached at C3 isn’t ‘your best life’. That is a slogan indicating the advantages of being redeemed. Is it best to be saved, or unsaved? However, Christianity is certainly the best life, even in trials or tests, or are you saying it is not?
‘Best life now‘ is actually something from a Joel Osteen book, not C3. Which you all know.
Is it valid to say this is your best life? Well is it best to be saved or unsaved? A sinner or a saint? Forgiven or unforgiven? Made righteous or yet guilty? On your way to heaven or on your way to an eternity without God? Is this the beginning of everlasting life, or not? When does eternal life with Christ begin? Now, or when we die?
Read Ephesians chapter one and see what you think. See the benefits of salvation.
‘Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.’
We are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ. Read Psalms 103.
‘Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases, Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies, Who satisfies your mouth with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s. The LORD executes righteousness And justice for all who are oppressed.’
Forget not all His benefits. This is indeed good news.
Yes, in this life, for many believers, there is suffering, and persecution, and trials, along with the blessings, but, even then, all suffering and persecution leads to a crown.
We are instructed to count it all joy in the midst of trials. Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say rejoice. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Stand fast, therefore, in the liberty by which Christ has made us free. Faith, hope and love, the three eternal essentials remain. God’s grace sufficient for us in all things. Godliness with contentment is great gain. God is the Yes and Amen to all His promises. Living with a heavenly hope. God has given us all things which pertain to life and godliness, called us to love and virtue, given us exceedingly great and precious promises. And so on.
Meanwhile, here is an actual indication of C3 gospel, which you could have downloaded as easily as I did if you’d wanted to:
We Believe
There is one God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
In the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God; we believe in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His victorious and atoning death, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, His constant intercession and in His imminent return
In the person and work of the Holy Spirit with His fruits and gifts available in the Church; The Bible is the living word of God. It is infallible, authoritative and everlasting and is the foundation of all Christian doctrine
In the existence of an evil spiritual being known as the devil
In the spiritually lost condition of all people and the essential need for the new birth by faith in Jesus Christ
In the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a gift available to believers subsequent to the new birth, with normal evidence of speaking in other tongues
In the sacraments of the Lords Supper and baptism by full immersion in water for all believers
In the resurrection of both the saved and the lost, the one to everlasting life and the other to everlasting separation from God
In the church being the body of Christ, and each member being an active part of a local church, fulfilling the Great Commission.
And, yes, that is basically an orthodox Pentecostal doctrinal statement.
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Secondly, the newspaper report on the T. J. Russell issue misses the point that the church could not have been under C3 when his offences took place in the 70s and 80s.
In the interests of sound reporting, you need to consider a few things.
You have said yourselves that the Pringles did not arrive in Sydney until 1980, and it took around 4 years to build to 400, so church planting didn’t start until the mid-80s, and even then started in the Sydney area, so when did the church in question in Marion join? Not until at least 2000, and probably later.
A few minutes of research will tell you that the founding Pastor, not Ps Blaney, is recorded to have still been in charge until at least 2000. There is even a comment on your site which claims Ps Blaney had been there for 13 years in 2013, which backdated would indeed be around the year 2000, long after the offences were committed.
The judge in Russell’s case makes it clear that Russell had been successfully rehabilitated and had not been involved in any other misdemeanours for 20 years before 2007, when the second case came to court.
A former church youth camp leader has been jailed for at least four years for the sexual abuse of young boys more than 20 years ago.
The Adelaide Supreme Court judge said she had no option but to jail Russell, despite acknowledging that he had already been “fully rehabilitated”.
Russell admitted sexually abusing nine boys in the 1970s and 80s, some of whom he had been trusted to take care of at church youth camps.
Justice Margaret Nyland said the 57-year-old had served a prison sentence for other child sex offences in the late 1980s and had left jail “genuinely” rehabilitated.
Justice Nyland said Russell had not offended for more than 20 years and was unlikely to ever do so again.
But she said his crimes had devastated many young lives and were too serious to suspend the prison term.
Russell will be eligible for parole after serving four years of his nine year sentence.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-04-03/rehabilitated-paedophile-jailed-over-church-camp/2233258
This means all offences occurred before 1987, when the church could not have possibly been under Ps Blaney, or Phil Pringle, or C3.
Do the math yourselves. I am open to correction if I have miscalculated the timing of these events.
I have read your post with interest and, notwithstanding the importance of ALL the points you make, I do take issue with one.
I am still surprised that, with all we have come to learn over recent years, anyone could possibly expound the theory that a paedophile can be cured or “rehabilitated”. I include the learned Justice Margaret Nyland, in my disgust that anyone would make such an ill-informed statement. Please be ever mindful of the fact that many Judges and Magistrates have erred over the years in taking into account that such perpetrators have been “rehabilitated”. The list would be too great to go through here but your own research, if you have a mind to educate yourself on this subject, will provide you with a sickeningly long list of children who have been raped and even killed by paedophiles whom a Judge or a naive Parole Board claimed had been “rehabilitated”. And please do not ever be under the misapprehension that even those who sit on the Bench cannot be guilty of this heinous crime. With very little research you will be able to find cases of Judges, Magistrates, police officers and attorneys who have themselves been paedophiles. Justice Margaret Nyland is naive in the extreme to make such a statement about a paedophile being “fully rehabilitated” a statement to which any professional who works in this area would strongly attest.
We are learning more about this subject every day and, thanks to the current Royal Commission, we may all gain even more insight now than ever before into the sick predilection of paedophiles.
I experienced a cold chill l when I read your remarks and realised that the message is still not getting through to people and that there are still those so ill informed that they honestly believe that paedophiles can be “rehabilitated”. Please spend a day with any of the dedicated police officers of the Child Molestation units over the country and discover the facts about “full rehabilitation”. With respect, you ought to have been condemning the learned Judges comments rather than using them to prop up your argument.
It is the naivete’ and sometimes simple childish eagerness of some Christians to ignore reality in favour of what is an easier way to deal with this problem, that we must guard against.
I urge you most strongly to educate yourself on this subject before expounding or quoting such dangerous views that a paedophile can be “fully rehabilitated”. That belief is exactly why we are hearing such hideous and dreadful stories now from victims of abuse in Churches who have come before the Royal Commission to tell of their experiences.
As a general comment and NOT pertaining to any particular individual in your post, I would also very rigorously remind you that the absence of charges or convictions against a paedophile does NOT in any way infer that the paedophile has not been involving himself (or herself) in such activities during that period. Again, research into Trials will reveal the truth of that.
Churches are, and always have been, amongst the greatest havens and shelters for these evildoers for a variety of reasons.
But make no mistake, Delancey, the molestation itself is just the tip of the iceberg with this crime. Grooming, lying, manipulating, contriving, scheming, and operating in the shadows right in front of good, well-meaning people who want to see the best in everyone, are the stock-in-trade of paedophiles. It is astounding the amount of work these individuals are prepared to put in and the time they are prepared to take to wait for their opportunity to pounce.
This is a message to ALL members of Churches everywhere. Do not let down your guard for one moment. NOT FOR ONE MOMENT! Our children are precious to God and it is our duty to protect them from these wolves.
PLEASE contact the Child Molestation unit of your local police department and have them talk to your church on the subject if you have any doubts about how to handle the situation of “fully rehabilitated” paedophile taking on a leadership role in your church.
I recall hearing a very experienced Prosecutor outside a court following the Trial and successful conviction of a paedophile and commenting to a group of people that
“this bloke may not offend again”. Someone asked “Would you allow him to babysit your children”.
“NOT ON YOUR LIFE!” was the swift reply.
C3 churches have a history of covering up child abuse (and spousal abuse) over the years. Why? I can’t even begin to proffer an explanation except to say that perhaps the leaders want to present the Church without any stain regardless of the cost……. even to our childrens’ safety and well-being. Or is C3 (and other Churches) afraid of being seen as “unforgiving” if they do not hide these sins in the past?
With all the work that has been done in the area of this heinous crime over recent years, it is terrible in the extreme to see anyone either expound those views or even to quote anyone who expounds those views in order to prop up an argument to defend a Church and the behaviour of its members.
And one parting statement! C3 churches have a lurid history of of finding it far easier to get rid of the victims of child and spousal abuse out of their congregations than to enfold them in loving CHRISTIAN arms and “care for the widows and children”. And then, just to further underwrite what bullies some of these C3 leaders are, once the “victims” have left the church, the C3 leaders use their positions and the pulpit to defend their actions and malign those who have been shunned.
Delancey, this is not meant to in any way take issue on any other points in your comment, but it would be remiss of any right-minded person if he/she did not take you to task on this one aspect.
I am aware that child abuse is a blight on society, kreewater, and perpetrators should be identified and convicted. Whether they can be rehabilitated or not is another issue and discussion.
However, in addressing this case, I am asking the author of the post for clarification on the claims they made, because it seems that, given the timing, Mr Russell could not have been a member of C3 when the offences took place.
One would expect that the judge was qualified to perform her duties, and it is clear that she did lay down a severe prison sentence which would appear to argue against your suggestions that she was unprofessional or unlearned.
She made it clear that Mr Russell had not reoffended for over 20 years, but added that she had no choice but to convict for the earlier offences.
I used her summing up, as reported by the ABC news, to highlight the fact that Mr Russell could not have been a member of C3 at the time of the offences, which occurred before 1987, when that church was under another denomination and lead pastor.
Therefore Ps Blaney was not the lead pastor involved, which would seem to alter the complexion of the claims in the post.
Actions speak louder than words. What is really believed in theory eventually comes out in practice. Jesus said we will know a tree by its fruits, not its label, its size, its leaves or even its flowers…… its FRUITS.
What does C3 value – bible teaching or long personal testimonies?
Evangelism to the lost or increased church sizes?
Real growth in the Holy Spirit (see Galatians chapter 5) or outward manifestations only?
How much time is spent preaching the Gospel of Salvation compared to the “gospel of tithing”?
Would any regular attendees ever have learnt about C3’s core doctrines via attending church services only?
Do the pastors set a high standard of conduct for their congregation to follow? Jesus said a student isn’t above their teacher, or a servant above their master.
Who do the followers defend – Christ or Pringle, Hee… or their church leader?
I take it, then, that you and Austin have no objection to the statement of beliefs I passed on to you from C3, which actually do give a basic presentation of the gospel.
That statement of beliefs is nothing but c3s lip service to give the impression that they are a Christian movement.
After monitoring the movement, it is clear that c3 do not follow or believe their c3 constitution nor their belief statement which you published. It is typical for a lot of false Christian movements to copy-paste belief statements like this to give the impression that they are Christian organisations. This site has taken the movements beliefs to task. They operate from a different gospel, different faith, different Jesus and different spirit. They are no different to the Roman Catholic Church, Jehovah Witness’ or Mormons.
You’ve raised some interesting questions which we made as well when assembling the information for the article. We are hoping people from this church can provide us with more information. The intention of our article was to simply let the people from C3 Marion and the news articles speak for themselves.
1. Glad to hear that you believe paedophiles should be indentifed and convicted! Perhaps you could relay that message to the leaders of C3 Church and particularly to Phil Pringle, Simon McIntyre, Ian Treacy and others! I assume you are as passionate about that as you are about defending other matters. If so, would you kindly take it upon yourself to contact Phil Pringle this very day and relay this message to him?
2.To expect that any person, just because they sit on the Bench, is qualified to peform their duties is to have a cavalier approach to the entire issue of keeping our leaders accountable, regardless of whether they are in the church or society in general. You can “expect” it but it would be frivolous to assume it is so. I commented on her statement that the paedophile was “genuinely rehabilitated” not on the sentence she handed down. I stated that she was “unlearned” (did not mention unprofessional) and all present research would indicate that her comment shows her to be so
3. Yes. You are correct – she made mention that Russell had not offended for 20 years ………….instead of making note that he had not faced any similar charges in 20 years.
4. Now I find myself having to weigh in in on ther rest of your post which I had wanted to avoid but ………I would wish you to look again at your original message in which you quote C3’s “gospel” :
“The Bible is the living word of God. It is infallible, authoritative and everlasting and is the foundation of all Christian doctrine”.
I believe that is the fundamental point that is being debated on this site. Many C3 leaders do not believe or live by this. They believe, and even expound and preach the notion, that the Bible has to be “updated”, made more “relevant” , was written for a different cultural time………… and I could go on. This is not imagination – they actually PREACH IT FROM THE PULPIT!!!!! (or, to be more accurate, the stage).
The Bible is indeed INFALLIBLE and AUTHORITATIVE and EVERLASTING – no argument. Now perhaps you might explain to me whyI have heard so many C3 Pastors preach otherwise and certainly ACT contrary to this statement of belief!!!!!
And I would be interested to see how you align that “C3 gospel” which you state could be so easily downloaded with the REALITY of the behaviour of many C3 Leaders.
Please excuse me if I appear to be exercising sarcasm when I ask this question – it is honestly not my intention. But isn’t it about time that someone reminded the C3 leaders of that “C3 Gospel”?
Words are cheap ………… “you shall know them by the FRUITS” !!!! And by that I do not mean the number of backsides on the seats, the size of the buildings or the money they rake in through fear and intimidation…….. but by the way they care for the widows and children and the vulnerable in society.
Delancey, on the SURFACE C3 appears to be a fairly mainstream Charismatic church. To people very new to the Christian faith/ superficial knowledge of the bible nothing looks out of place and FEELS so real. How much of that is due to gifted musicians is a matter for debate.
It is what they add (materialistic legalism + excessive focus on experiences) and what they subtract (the full Gospel that offends unbelievers) plus no preachers’ accountability to their congregation, lies about what is happening with their tithes and donations that makes them do more harm than good…. and I am sure ex-C3 church members can give far more examples than that.
As an outsider – and excuse my bluntness – what concerns me so much is how brain-dead/damaged C3 followers seem to be in all knowledge aspects of their faith.
I have typed with atheists and pagans who know more about the bible and Christianity (and how to misuse it) than C3 contributors ever have here. They have no apologetics knowledge, no bible knowledge, all I have seen here is personal attack and excuse-making. How can Christians have a relationship with Christ if they have no factual knowledge about Him at all?
What are C3 followers going to do when personal trials and tribulations occur and their tithes hasn’t got results? Or if they stop “feeling” God’s presence any more? Will they abandon their faith? Will they turn to scripture if they don’t have an idea of what it even says right now?
I think you are missing the point of all of these articles ‘delancey’ – it’s not what C3 or any other church states in a creed/statement of belief etc. that counts.
It is what they do day to day, and how they treat their people – that is how they will be judged – and yes, here and elsewhere, they will be judged…
How many times have we heard on this one blog alone:
1) that people are shunned for questioning leadership,
2) that they are continually flogged for money (which many of them can’t afford,)
3) That there is this mocking attitude towards those in trouble or any kind,
4) That many C3 ‘pastors’ are egotistical, arrogant, dictatorial and uncaring,
5) That sermons from the pulpit are basically shallow twaddle and nonsense,
6) That anyone asking about financial matters is virtually shown the door,
7) That the only ‘gospel’ preached is the ‘feel good’ one that offends nobody?
Now, not all of these things may be in effect at all C3 churches, but anyone looking down the list would have to say that many of these points have appeared in many C3’s, going by their track record of complaints both here and elsewhere.
The above list seems very similar to the hallmarks of a cult, and not those of a genuine, bona fide Christian church, yet they are the words coming out of the mouths of ex C3 people – they are not our words… The amount of people who have indicated that they are either leaving their C3 church or have already left at some past date seems to be increasing, and no wonder as to why…
You can nit-pic times, dates and all the rest ‘delancey’, but the truth is, there is more than enough evidence presented here, on this blogsite alone, to effect the closing down C3 “church” forever. Scandal after scandal, cover ups, kick backs, wrong associations, not to mention false teaching and false prophecy from no less than “the prophet” himself… What is it going to take for this ‘house of cards’ church to finally fall over?
C3 leadership’s treatment of its followers is under very close scrutiny, and even if you were right about some of what you have said, that in no way makes up for the rest of the drivel that passes as “Christianity” in this post modern, emergent, errant ridden ‘church’ that you so unwisely wish to defend.
Congratulations ‘delancey’ – you have ‘strained out the gnat’, but have failed to swallow the ‘camels humps’ of truth either side of it – you are a typical, one eyed C3 supporter and protector… just another blind guide, leading those poor, blind and naked Laodiceans into the ditch of doctrinal error and false spirituality…
Your scripture quoting seems rather inadequate in the light of all of the above…
Thanks for your thoughts, Austin, but I was a dressing the article in the post, which, amongst other things, states:
“On topic of “your best life now”, Trevor Russell found his “best life now” by becoming a C3 pastor and living a life of immoral pleasure.”
It seems that neither of these claims are true, because the statement of beliefs refutes the first, and the facts, the timing and reality refutes the second.
Unless anyone can show otherwise, Mr Russell, it seems, could not have been a C3 pastor, C3 member or C3 congregant when the offences took place. Neither was Ps Blaney the lead pastor, nor was the church a C3 church.
I am merely suggesting that this needs to be addressed in the post.
Hello Steve Rowe… 🙂 – and whether you are that blythe spirit or not – my last post was not “my thyoughts” – they are the facts…
“Thinker” you have hit the nail on the head when you say when you say “excessive focus on experiences”. That’s the biggest problem in a nutshell!
When we Christians stop searching for signs and wonders (or PROOF) and return to our faith many of these problems we are experiencing in our churches will fail to exist..
@Thinker – good for you – the Bible always shows the way, but these poor C3 folks have been so sorely misled by their wayward ‘leaders’…
@Berean – you are right about all of that – why did C3 have to pay for it if they didn’t do it? I don’t think that ‘delancy’ will be offering any credible answers to those questions, will he?
I really do think that for you C3/ex C3 folks to get your bearings, you may need to go back to basics, to study Christ and the apostles writings for yourselves, to explore the scriptures and see the simplicity that is in Christ, and to leave off from following these obvious false prophets, who have robbed you blind,and have left you scattered all over the place, with no true and caring shepherds to lead and guide you…
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,” (Luke 4:18)
These are some of the hallmarks of a true shepherd, to call the lost sheep to come home, to effect healing of some very real hurts, to preach a word of deliverence (not necessarily castng out demons,) to help those who have been blinded by the idolatry of false teaching and pastor worship, see the truth once more – that’s what Luke is talking about – yes it is primarily about Jesus fulfilling prophecy, but all those who folow in His footsteps as true shepherds will do more of the same…
Folks, instead of barking at us, why not just get yourselves a simple Bible study book – a good one, and I’m sure that the folks who come here each day with your best interests at heart, can recommend several to begin with, and just get together in each other’s homes and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you into genuine truth. God will either add genuine leaders to your group or find you a good church nearby.
I was part of a small group many years ago, where we found ourselves isolated from the mainstream and had to fend for ourselves and that’s how we started to rebuild and repair the damage caused by another legalist in our midst, whom we put going.
Make no mistake about it – false prophets should be shown the door – not the other way around! Don’t let them show you the door – you show them the door, for good!
It was a struggle at first, but the Lord was with us and we learnt the ways of God and grew stronger and truly ‘prospered’. We all had good jobs and a place to live and enough left over to bless others with when the need arose. That is true prosperity my friends – this legalistic tithing rubbish concocted by the head honchos, will only ever make them rich, and keep you poor, so why defend their pilfering – and pimping a false gospelto you, into the bargain? Why do it?
Try it – you’ll like it, and if you seem to get stuck here and there, well, there’s plenty of help here on the board if you need it. Most of the genuine folks who post on here each week seem to me to be of sound doctrine as regarding the basics of the faith.
One last thing – for your own sakes – give people like ‘delancey’ a wide berth – they only come here to cause confusion and argue the toss…
Those are all speculative, albeit, reasonable questions, but the fact remains that Mr Russell could not have been involved with C3 when the offences took place. If a simple name change could absolve a not-for-profit from former misdemeanours by members or staff they could just change names and they’d have no one to answer to. If I were to speculate that would be the obvious answer. You can work it out from there.
I’m amazed at the reticence by members on your site to accept that the timeline I have put up seems to show that C3 could not have been involved in the original offences.
In other words, just like c3 leadership, you don’t believe C3 Marion are accountable or needed to uphold the c3 constitution alongside their statement of beliefs either?
https://c3churchwatch.com/2012/11/18/c3s-ccci-christian-city-church-international-constitution-document/
Lip service: an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction
Isaiah was right about you Steve Rowe…
I haven’t said that at all, churchwatcher. In fact, they have made themselves accountable if they have agreed to pay compensation out of court. Is there confirmation of any of this? Or that Mr Russell was a pastor? Or a C3 Pastor? Can you show this?
My point entirely is that the timeline seems to indicate that the offences could not have taken place under C3.
Your point seems to always be that your brain is just as flawless as Pringle’s C3 movement.
Are you sure your alias should read ‘delancey’? ‘Deluded’ sounds more accurate.
“In fact, they have made themselves accountable if they have agreed to pay compensation out of court.”
Not at all. C3 doesn’t do this to make “themselves accountable”. Australians have coined this type of behaviour “covering your ass” (CYA) which c3 is very good at doing.
C3 doesn’t like getting bad press when ex-members take these types of issues to court. It generally means that the member has a legitimate case that C3 can’t afford to lose. And it appears they’ve stooped to this level before.
I don’t think there’s any need to be rude, churchwatcher. I have merely pointed out that C3 has a statement of beliefs which demonstrates compliance with the gospel, and that there is possibly a discrepancy in the reporting regarding the timeline of events at the church in question in the post.
The former you have dismissed without recognising it as accurate to the gospel.
The latter you have chosen to ignore.
The offences occurred somewhere between 1975 & 1985. The church had the same lead pastor from inception until 2000, and was not a C3. There is, online, a comprehensive history of the church from its beginnings until 2000, written in 2002, which doesn’t mention C3.
The church did not join C3 until at least 2001, and would have had to go through a probationary period, so could not have been a C3 until at least 2002 or 2003. I suggest it was much later than this. Perhaps you can clarify this for the people who read your site.
It is your choice if you choose to disregard this information.
“I don’t think there’s any need to be rude, churchwatcher.”
That’s rich coming from you. I think it has been established that you speak with multi-plank-eyetis.
“I have merely pointed out that C3 has a statement of beliefs which demonstrates compliance with the gospel, … The former you have dismissed without recognising it as accurate to the gospel.
The latter you have chosen to ignore.”
Steve Rowe – since you defend C3 and say they uphold the statement of beliefs, we will assume you believe the following to be the gospel:
“The Gospel is living your best life now… not in heaven but here on earth.”
There. Problem solved. You shouldn’t have a problem with this gospel since you yourself say the following on your own site:
“The basis of Word of Faith teaching is not metaphysics. It is the gospel.” – Steve Rowe, Recovering faith in the Body, ChookWatch, http://chookwatch.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/recovering-faith-in-the-body/, Published 13/05/2014. (Accessed 27/05/2014.)
Keep defending the faithless.
Testimonies of ex word-of-faith believers, including pastors. Some were insiders who know how WOF distorts scripture to justify doctrines because they did it themselves. I certainly trust ex-cultists’ opinions on their own cult more than other people’s opinions…
http://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/testimony-page/
Yeah mate, that’s for SALVATION. The same with confessing Jesus is Lord and believing in your heart.
What I’m challenging is the “speak it into being” teaching that is still often preached in contemporary churches including most recently for me, c3. Let me tell you all those things I used to say, “I see this, I see that, I declare this!” – whilst I took my sadly now deceased dog for a walk each night – haven’t come true.
God has blessed me, yes! But that trip overseas, that massive wad of money, sports car etc – hasn’t happened. And we are taught that if it doesn’t happen, we don’t have enough faith. Oh – and maybe you’re not GIVING enough!
Man, if Phil Pringle or any other contemporary preacher wants to make a squillion – just trademark the phrase “Sow a seed for your miracle!”, or “Give your way out of debt!”.
I’m going to bed, to dream of my dog, whom I am convinced will be at the Resurrection….
@Thinker, thank you for posting that testimonies of ex-Word of Faithers link. I had not seen that one before, it is very beneficial. Appreciate it,
Jim Styles
Also, to add. I attended a couple Word of Faith churches years ago. The usual Copeland-Hagin stuff. And many of the original people are still there and caught up in it.
Unfortunately, even for those who left, even some of them still walk around having ‘a word’ (bogus word that is) for everybody. Sadly, the effects of that mess can be hard to shake,
Jim Styles
@ CW – for a while there, I thought I was the only one that saw through ‘delancey’. Obviously his MPD (Multiple Pentecostal Disorder,) is kicking in again – must have forgotten to take his pills… and of course when that happens, he can’t remember which ‘church’ he’s defending or against what heresy!
Well, they all look the same to me ‘delancey’… they probably just need a “one size fits all” defence, and you’re probably the best they can rake up at short notice!
You see, one of his favourite fiends is called ‘Q’ and anyone who has ever watched Star Trek – Next Generation, would know that the character called ‘Q’ pops in, causes all sorts of trouble and the then pops out of the story line again, for a while…
The actor who plays ‘Q’ on that Sci Fi show, is John DeLancey – thus this feeble attempt at deception is dismal and childish, but then again – that is vintage Steve Rowe. His style of writing and phrasiology are exactly the same as when I went toe to toe with him on his (now defunct) former blogsite some 5 weeks ago.
But of course, the most recent incarnation of “Chookwatch” blogsite has not fared too well either, as it only has one disciple so far, and that just happens to be – you guessed it – ‘Q’:
http://chookwatch.wordpress.com/
CW – I’m only posting this so that any newbies or people that haven’t been here for some time, won’t be deceived by this arrogant deceiver and his ‘silver tongued’ approach to some very serious issues within the church. Hope you don’t mind 🙂
“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.” (Ephesians 5:11)
Consider yourself exposed ‘delancey’…
Delancey was my first school.
In fact, regardless of who I might or might not be, I have merely shown a couple of anomalies in the post which any sound journalist or reporter would then acknowledge and determine to confirm or correct.
There are people who comment here who should have been able to work the timeline out for themselves. I left it several days before saying anything, expecting someone to put it together.
Then, once it was pointed out to you, the most responsible thing to do would be to research it and, if confirmed, make appropriate admissions and corrections.
A nonaligned observer might conclude that you either didn’t see it, or that no one wanted to show that level of integrity.
“A nonaligned observer might conclude that you either didn’t see it, or that no one wanted to show that level of integrity.”
Steve Rowe speaking on “integrity”?
If we applied your level of integrity to this blog we would have ignored the issue altogether and belittled the victims.
@ delancy above:
“In fact, regardless of who I might or might not be, I have merely shown a couple of anomalies in the post which any sound journalist or reporter would then acknowledge and determine to confirm or correct.”
But Steve/delancy, wasn’t it those ‘sound journalists and reporters’ who filed the original media reports in the first place?
How could you possibly accept some of what they said back then, and begin to question all it now, with any of your ‘credibility’ left intact?
I can understand the ‘Adelaide Now’ reporter making that mistake, but not former C3 members who must know that Christian City church was not even started until 1980, and the Adelaide church in question could not have joined until at least 2001.
The offences took place in the 70s and early 80s. Russell did not reoffend for over 20
years, according to the judge in the second case. The timeline refutes the reporter’s story. Russell could not have been a C3 member when he committed the offences. The ABC reports were far more accurate, and didn’t mention C3.
My understanding is that the church was originally a CRC, and then Bethesda under Ps Vassa until at least 2000. As I have said, 140 pages of the entire history of the church up to 2000 is available online.
I don’t think it’s worth continuing since you seem unable to grasp the significance of what I have been telling you.
Sorry coming off an old reply…
Re WoF – this is dribble, straight from PP’s mouth. Heard it before. Of course money is more important than worship, prayer etc:
“Passionate Spirituality. This is measured in tithing. There are several measurements they give for these. It’s unusual the measurements that they actually put on – on these ah – how they – how they said “We can tell if a church is spiritually passionate not by the fact they go ‘Oooooooo!’ (Phil imitates a Holy Ghost shaker) like this. But by how much they actually give.”
@delancey ” I have merely pointed out that C3 has a statement of beliefs which demonstrates compliance with the gospel”.
Now that has to be the weakest argument yet.
Having a ‘statement’ of beliefs doesn’t demonstrate ANY compliance with the Bible…OBEYING the Bible shows compliance.
It is the ‘unstated’ beliefs of C3 leadership that prove non-compliance with the Holy Word. Numerous False Prophecies, recent money scandals, kong hee, sun ho, ‘cursed’ if you don’t tithe…shall i go on?
@ delancy/Steve Rowe
“I haven’t said that at all, churchwatcher. In fact, they have made themselves accountable if they have agreed to pay compensation out of court. Is there confirmation of any of this? Or that Mr Russell was a pastor? Or a C3 Pastor? Can you show this?”
http://www.c3darwin.com/
If you go to the C3 church website up in Darwin, you won’t find any text in the history part about Steve Rowe – I wonder why that particular website has been “sanitised”?
There’s not one mention of him there (even though he was allegedly a former ‘pastor’ there until sometime in 2011/12.)
I couldn’t even find a picture of him at that year’s Christmass party photo shoot, (was there on Facebook as of a month ago but has since been removed) or anything further back than 2012, so if I were to try and “prove” that he was a ‘pastor’ during 2011/2012, I might be hard pressed to find any “evidence” of his involvement at all, mightn’t I…?
Steve – is there something that you need to tell us?
Oh dear! It looks like Steve has become a “non-pastor”!
We all had him pegged as Phil Pringle’s loyal lap dog; it seems that he must have peed on the carpet and been shown the door.
Perhaps Phil realised that Steve is quite unstable and presents as someone who is not at all well (and who probably needs professional help). It’s clear from reading Steve’s deluded rants here that he is a huge liability to his beloved C3 movement, to which he clings as would an oyster to a rock – as though he has no other avenue by which to express himself or find any real meaning in life, which is sad beyond words.
Steve’s status within C3 (or rather, what appears to be his complete lack of it) raises the interesting question of why he felt compelled to shut down C3churchwatchwatch – perhaps the C3 “leadership” grew tired of having that albatross of a site around their collective necks, and issued a directive to their fawning and servile would-be apologist to get rid of it. Steve boasted on the now-defunct C3CWW that he exercised commendable restraint in censoring comments; it’s ironic in the extreme that he found himself losing on-line arguments so badly that the only recourse by which he could save face was to take his football and go home. How embarrassing for a man who is himself a total embarrassment.
@delancy / Steve Rowe,
Haven’t you noticed 1000’s of churches use basically the SAME doctrinal statement, but in reality many teach all kinds of trash and invite all kinds of trashy teachers? Church website doctrinal statements are for the most part, meaningless. They’re cookie cutter.
Anyway, you love attention. Do you have a special commission to go around correcting everybody?
Steve Rowe reminds me of Martin Richling. Martin Richling claims to have read the Bible 300 times, but he still doesn’t get it, and likewise exactly as Martin himself is confused, now Martin is confusing a lot of newer ‘converts’ (while taking their money no less, just like PP). I would not have believed anyone could possibly read the Bible even just 10 times and still not get it, but Martin Richling is living proof that far more drastic is possible.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TSABibleSchool
ps: Martin Richling also loves to go around correcting everybody. (Sound familiar Steve?) Martin keeps naming more and more legitimate Christian pastors, claiming they’re not Christians, while Martin Richling himself is way way out to lunch doctrinally.
Check Martin out. You’ll enjoy his teachings…
NOT.
So Steve, if you’re really so worried about errors being propagated…. then…. why…. are…. you…. on THIS website trying to correct a few nits here and there, rather than over asking your friends PP and BH about ALL THEIR ERRORS AND DISCREPANCIES?
Have you ever been checked for OCD?
Is this you, following heretics: John C Maxwell, Kong Hee, and Brian Houston?
https://twitter.com/StephenERowe
Yes. That’s his twitter.
@ Austin – Final word (maybe), I made it quite clear I have HUGE issues with Steve. My exposure/dialogue with him goes back years, and maybe only two or three others here can say that.
I’ve actually shared a “platform” WITH Steve where we have argued for the total orthodoxy of the Christian faith AGAINST extreme liberal, gay-promoting, atonement/penal substitution-denying, hell-denying universalists.
Now do I understand how we can have such opposing views where C3 and false teachers/teaching are concerned?
No I don’t, and admit it’s incredibly frustrating but I cannot in good faith declare this particular person unsaved.
By the way, if he’s not saved as you say, what are we doing about it?
@ Jim Styles – my concerns are that that this site might be highjacked by two things.
1. Any contentious disagreements among members of this group will certainly send those visiting this site (because they have concerns about C3 issues) scurrying to “safer climates”.
2. That by declaring people “unsaved” will cause others to accuse us of judging unfairly.
1 Kings 8:39 (in part) “…then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind)”
Good discernment sites are under constant attack from those being “discerned”, that’s the part of the problem too.
“Tares amongst the wheat, goats amongst the sheep, wise and foolish virgins…”
There are a number of ways that we can tell just who is and isn’t following the ways of the Lord… Some of what is below may help you to identify a false ministry and thus avoid any pain, suffering or loss that may have occurred, should you have otherwise chosen to get involved:
Tares and wheat look very similar, and if you weren’t an experienced farmer, you might not be able to tell from a distance, which one is which. It is at harvest time, when the heads of the tares grow above that of the wheat, but can only produce a useless flower, that you can tell tares from wheat. (Matthew 13:24 – 30) :
(http://musingsofamountainmama.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/wheattares1.jpg)
Goats and sheep in Australia look obviously different, but with Middle Eastern and European breeds, it is not so easy to tell. Sheep are herd animals, who rely on their shepherds for protection, pasture and shelter. Goats are stubborn and independant, eat rubbish, and like the high and lonely places.Some goat breeds can be herded too, but this goes against their basic nature. (Matthew 25:31 – 46)
http://cdn2b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/ae/0b/ae0b528e897b377fef485892779d29c8.jpg?itok=W3gvB3IN
Differences between sheep & goats: http://www.sheep101.info/sheepandgoats.html
The wise virgins were busy preparing themselves for the entrance of the Groom. They were not concerned with worldly matters (buying and selling, marrying and giving in marriage, as in the days of Noah,) but were busily gathering oil in their vessels, in readiness for the long night watch that would come, before the Groom opened up the door to the wedding feast.
Failure to acquire this oil meant that your oil lamp would go out at a crucial time, and the Groom would not recognise you at the door, because of the darkness surrounding you. But the foolish virgins gathered no oil in their vesels and after they had awoken from their slumber, and heard the midnight cry, they tried to borrow some of the wise virgins oil, so that they could appear wise, when in fact, they had been foolish and had neglected this vital part of the preparation. (Matt 25:1 – 13)
Again re WoF – having read many of PP’s “Faith” book quotes – where he often blurs the line of what do we have faith for, I read this today from Spurgeon. Admittedly it has to do with faith, and believing God – but it is far away from the “speaking it out”, “my faith means God must do this for me” thinking. This is a Christian falling to his knees, crying to God and believing He will meet requests – the way it should be:
“Beloved reader, what is thy desperate case? What heavy matter hast thou in hand this evening? Bring it hither. The God of the prophets lives, and lives to help his saints. He will not suffer thee to lack any good thing. Believe thou in the Lord of Hosts! Approach him pleading the name of Jesus; thou too shalt see the finger of God working marvels for his people. According to thy faith be it unto thee. In our hours of bodily pain and mental anguish, we find ourselves as naturally driven to prayer as the wreck is driven upon the shore by the waves. Faith, then, we choose, rather than doubt, as the mainspring of our life.”
Obviously my opinion doesn’t matter here, but I think the rest of you would do well to listen to Berean.
Asserting that someone like Steve isn’t even saved will not help what you are trying to achieve here.
Why can’t Christians accept that sometimes people can have radically different ideas but still be saved and loving God?
Biblical example for the…Bereans among you! Paul had to rebuke Peter for behaviour and thinking that is pretty hard to understand now. It was totally wrong for someone who understands the gospel. But was Peter unsaved?
I think there are some valid things said on this website (which is where Steve and I differ), but if you slam just about everyone, people will easily be turned off by thinking “the people on C3watch are against just about everyone, and think hardly anyone is saved”.
This is more advice than criticism. Take it or leave it.
And for what it’s worth – good on you Berean for your decency.
“Why can’t Christians accept that sometimes people can have radically different ideas but still be saved and loving God?”
Like the Pharisees?
One problem…steve rowe is not the Apostle Peter.
Q said: “Why can’t Christians accept that sometimes people can have radically different ideas but still be saved and loving God?”
bolger says: Sorry, but, Steve Rowe living in rebellion is not equal to ‘loving God.’ In fact, rebellion is like WITCHCRAFT (1 Samuel 15:23).
You need to learn where to draw the line.
“But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.” (1 Corinthians 5:11)
Paul’s injunction is quite clear, and bares no favours to anyone – if a man is ‘called a brother’ then he clearly must abstain from known sins – and that list includes ‘covetous’ and ‘idolater’ and ‘extortioner’. Consider the following:
Covetousness – wanting some one elses’ property, wife, money etc
Idolator – someone who holds a thing/person/object/idea before the honour and worship of God
Extortioner – someone who extorts money or property under threat of physical violence or other form of retribution.
Crooked preachers and carnal/false christians could easily fall into all 3 categories – (and so could I, but I do my best not to.)
Rich preachers wanting more money, more property, more influence – are they ‘coveting their neighbour’s goods’ in order to get their goals and dreams fulfilled?
Are they worshiping the idol of Mammon – the love of money, or even Baal, where the church people’s family life (holidays, time together, money, talents, energy) has been abused by being sacrificed on the altar of whatever movement thay are building and controlling?
Extortioners – are they ‘pastors’ who teach the tithing doctrine, which makes some of the incredibly rich, while at the same time, making the saints incredibly poor? Is teaching that false doctrine of Mammon worship just like extortion of the saints?
If any of these things are true then a lot of church people need to part company with their leadership – and fast! According to Paul the apostle, you’re not even allowed to have breakfast with them at McDonalds!
If I need any back up on this, then here’s a similar passage from Collosians 3:5 :
“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence (depraved passion), and covetousness, which is idolatry”
I am not sinlessly perfect, nor do I expect others to be, but what Paul is talking about in both verses, is that some people live a sinful lifestyle – it’s not just about individual sins, but those which make up a regular part of everyday living and are considered by some to be “normal”, but they are not – they are sinful! This is a process…
The sad thing is that the leaders who are living out the sins of covetesness, idolatry and extortion in plain view, are then quite happy to claim that they are enjoying the blessing of God!
No offense Berean but ..what is ‘”Christian civility’? If i comment here defending the C3 Pringle church or i comment defending the Bible Scriptures..which one is ” civil’ ?
Would John the Baptist have been deemed ‘uncivil’, or would Christ throwing the money-changers out of the Temple have been deemed ‘uncivil’ behaviour as well?
Now THAT would have been an ‘abusive’ environment
“How we respond comes under scrutiny too”. Agreed, but there is also something about being ‘lukewarm’.
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Pharisees and Steve are completely different in regards to their acceptance of Christ.
You’ve missed the point. Lovely bunch of people here.
Like I said, kudos to Berean for having some common sense.
@ Q, “Lovely bunch of people here. blah blah blah. blah blah blah.”
the truth about the state of the “visible Church” isn’t pretty.
if you want the truth, come here.
if you’re looking for candy-coated platitudes, go somewhere else.
nfg
Hello NFG – nice to see you back again – truth is sometimes hard to swallow and in keeping with CW’s ”rules of the forum”, I have decided that I’m not going to adress certain people’s posted comments any more.
I am in agreement with you on this one though – some people just don’t like Bible truth – it gets in the way of their motives and agendas, and of course, in their own churches, their agendas clearly show their motives, don’t they?
Take, for example, where Jesus was exposing the pharisees motives and agendas, by denouncing their pernicious (sinful) ways:
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.” (Matthew 23:14)
Consider also Matthew Henry’s commentary on the topic:
“Ye devour widows’ houses” – Women who have lost their natural protector (husband) become their prey. To these they attach themselves, winning them over by flattery and fraud, and persuading them to assist them with their substance to the ruin of their fortunes.
God had always defended the cause of widows, and had urged his people to deal gently and mercifully with them (see Deuteronomy 10:18; Deuteronomy 27:19; Psalm 68:5; Isaiah 1:17; Luke 18:3-7)” (http://biblehub.com/matthew/23-14.htm)
So, it’s OK to rob widows blind, and then go off to a prayer meetng, and make yourself look good in front of the crowd. It’s that same kind of legalistic Phariseeism that allows some churches to cover up the sins of their leaders, and then pray long prayers, as a pretence… or hold long conferences… or try and hide long court cases – and still maintain that outward appearance of “righteousness” and all the while be “the tombs of dead men’s bones…”
Now there’s some Bible truth that would be harder to swallow than any two humped camel…
hi austin, yes i agree i think you should just post whoever whenever you can, because people can spend a lot of time posting. i’ve been working on a couple things so not posting a whole lot lately. didn’t notice mrhatch posting much lately either, i like reading his posts because he’s no-nonsense & solid & i like his testimony how he hightailed it outta hillsong.
anyway, our life is “but a vapor”, mine feels like that now. i’ll post as i have time or notice anything interesting.
by the way, i can tell you and several others spend a lot of time in the Scriptures. not all Christians do. i didnt use to. i hope you all keep doing that. right now i’m trying to base my life on 2 things. its just where i’m at right now in my walk with the Lord. (1) reading my Bible more consistently, (2) walking in personal holiness..
nfg
Good for you NFG – those things are part of the keys to solid Christian living – they will certainly “put oil in your lamp” for whatever dark times may be up ahead.
I just don’t want to waste time ‘dancing around the pole’ over insignificant issues or other people’s stupid arguements – I don’t want to play their silly mind games any more – it’s far more important to bring the word of God to bare on people, places and events”
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)
One last thing – I don’t remember stating that anyone was “unsaved” but I do remember very vividly asking, as did John the Baptist and Jesus, “show me some fruit”:
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. “(Galatians 5:22 – 25)
What an astonishing thread this has turned out to be!
As Q indicated, kudos to Berean for showing common sense in the face of some extraordinary commentary.
I take it, then, that, since you have completely changed the subject from the original post, which is all I commented on, the apparent error in the timeline in the post article is to be disregarded as mere ‘nit-picking’, or some kind of minor misnomer, despite the serious charges laid against the current pastor at C3 Marion by churchwatcher in the article.
We await part 2 with great interest. Perhaps churchwatcher will put things right, given that he has been handed the tools.
Click to access historyThesisLew.pdf
“if you’re looking for candy-coated platitudes, go somewhere else.”
Not looking for anything. I’m not C3. I think Kong Hee’s way of doing business is way over the top. I think China Wine is a ridiculous video. I think spending all that money on financing her career including the lavish lifestyle is crazy. I don’t believe in tithing.
Probably there is a lot I agree with you guys here.
But…. it’s a big thing to say someone isn’t saved. Though it gets easier when you’ve debated the person and exchanged unpleasantries.
Thanks Berean. (I probably got quite a lot coarser in my comments after having done battle with Bones over the years). Sorry if I was out of line a few days ago.
Probably PTSD…..lol Snapping at people after being in combat for too long.
@ Q – thanks for that. I just hope Bones comes back to a more solid foundation of faith. By the way on this blog the guys would agree with you that wearing a dress is weird (let them figure that one out 🙂 ), so there will be mutual agreement sometimes as we all go off on our various bunny-trails.
As a general comment – when I was rereading the original post last night, this part of S.William’s testimony stood out:
“Most of CCC seem to be in a time-warp – old fashioned teaching that’s got very little of the true gospel – its just a string of meaningless platitudes. Its not the gospel – its a hard program of religious works.
Many people that attend are people like Marty – you’d have to describe them as simple and vulnerable to religious control and manipulation.”
The last part kind of reminds me of Romans 16:17, 18:
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”
I’ve quoted this in other places on the blog, but I feel that, in the light of the original post, it fits this situation too.
If young, Biblically illiterate and vulnerable people are being swayed by “good words and fair speeches” – (‘your best life’ et al) instead of being swayed by the conviction that comes from the Gospel being preached, then I’d have to say that a certain level of deception has occurred.
‘Division’ when the church property was seized from Peter Vacca, and ‘offences’ when congregants were bled dry to maintain the system and eventually pay out that compensation, and those unwarranted debts. Is that a form of financial abuse?
‘Marty’ said that he was ‘learning to be a better Christian’ by ‘church attendance, tithing and (blindly?) following his leaders’ – sounds somewhat legal and shallow to me, but I doubt that those things alone would make anyone a ‘better’ Christian, unless they have been hoodwinked into a works based religion, that depended on and demanded regular ‘performance’ in order to obatin the leadership’s approval.
If, as some conclude, church assets were liquidated to pay out compensation to the victims, as well as to retire debt from overseas excursions, then it looks to me like verse 18 also applies – “they serve their own bellies” – (desires, wants). Jet set holidays/ministry tours in Africa. Lavish lifestyles too? A lack of accountability to the sheep for time and money spent? It all sounds so familiar…
Financial payouts after assets sold being the means, but at the expense of the congregational (people with ‘simple hearts’) giving, over many years.
And of course, when all the money’s gone, God’s man of faith and power (Jude Blaney) will still be there, tending his flock of vulnerable and illiterate sheep, won’t he?
@Berean, with those guys, girls wearing dresses, gay marriage, gay sex, and even nude worship services were defended.
That’s why I’m not ready to throw you Calvinists under the bus. I think anyone seeing you and Steve stand together on many issues would be hard pressed to completely question his salvation.
But enough of that. For the record, any Christians I know who aren’t C3 fall over when I show them the China Wine video.
“But For the record, any Christians I know who aren’t C3 fall over when I show them the China Wine video.”
If I said, “this is the wife of a “pastor” of Singapore’s largest church” I’d agree. Havin said that, even years ago I know Kong was held in massive esteem in c3 circles. Of course, you believe what you’re told…and don’t question.
Still having problems posting here so have to go through the moderator.
@ squidaloopa – see my response over here: https://c3churchwatch.com/2014/05/29/accused-leaves-khoos-coop-what-will-they-do-without-chew/#comment-17651
Berean
To ‘Insider’. Sorry that we cannot approve your comment. Can you please email us? We would like to discuss your insights to C3 Marion.