Brian Houston teaches,
“In the face of life’s challenges, surround yourself with positive, faithfilled words that challenge the problem and focus on answers. Your environment is critical at such times. Carefully choose your friends, your counsel, and your place of worship. Avoid those whose belief system is devoid of answers or life’s everyday problems. Never accept the mindset that persecution and suffering are the will of God; they are the weapons of the devil who is hell-bent on distracting you from God’s amazing plan for you life.” – Brian Houston, How To Live A Blessed Life, Sydney: Maximised Leadership, 2002, pg 31.
Discuss.
C3 Church Watch 
I don’t need to.
Actually, refer John 16:33.
Now, Brian – please discuss.
He is saying the brutal and cruel persecution and torture of the early Christians under the hands of wicked Roman emperors were brought about by their lack of faith and associating themselves with a belief system devoid of answers to the reality of life’s problems. He is saying the same things about Christians who are persecuted and deprived of basic rights and amenities because they hold fast to their faith and believe in a God who works out all things for the good of them who loved Him even if it be in suffering and death. Sickness and misfortunes must be the product of a wrong mindset and lack of faith. Christians who are poor or financially not well to do, must be those with the wrong negative mindset. The only right mindset is to think that you are a child of God and think positively that health and wealth is God’s will for you.Think positive, confess postive, visualise positive and all things will come into being. Wow, just like Yonggi Cho and K Copeland’s little gods.
“Never accept the mindset that persecution and suffering are the will of God; they are the weapons of the devil who is hell-bent on distracting you from God’s amazing plan for you life.”” Brian Houston 2002
Really Brian? What about the following? Obviously the Jesus and the apostles got it wrong:
1. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren.” Apostle Paul ( 2 Corinthians 11:25, 26)
2. ” If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you. (John 15:18)
3. “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held” (Rev 6:9)
4. “Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:25)
5. “I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Apostle John (Revelation 1:9)
6. “Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.”
(Hebrews 13:13)
7. ” Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”
(2 Tim 3:12)
One wonders that, if Mr Houston hasn’t experienced persecution or suffering, if he is indeed, living a godly life…?
What scriptures would he use to indicate to us that he is living a godly life – and suffering accordingly for his beliefs?
Now now, let’s not get confused about who Brian is referring to. He’s not talking about the God of the Bible, Nooooo. Brian is talking about the feel-good new-age mocha-latte drinking hipster deity who gives everyone a first place prize and just wants to see people get really filthy rich! Yay! He’s just itching to give you all some cash, you just need to put a little bit more into Brian’s building offering fund of love….
Now can someone please remix the music for next week’s music session? Give it a couple of Skrillex type bass drops, worship is like totally bland without bass drops…
“Depart from me you who drink cappucinos in church – I never knew you…”
That’s very funny, Austin.
I think that what Brian is saying is that trials are only for a season. Which I agree with. However, the season can be very long. However because of sin, in overseas countries they get killed for their faith and in China they have hidden church, so I’m not sure if Brian’s comment is realistic. We are living in the valley of the shadow of death and we will receive our reward in heaven. Some people have terrible lives down here, for example in the world wars. Also, imagine having cerebal palsey – that would be a lifetime trial. So I don’t think Brian’s view is balanced at all.
Trials for a season or trials for a lifetime? How do we react during those trials – here’s a great testimony from someone with cerebral palsy.
http://justinpeters.org/personal-testimony/
Can someone please come defend Brian?? 😉
I don’t agree with Justin Peters when he says that God gave him cerebral palsy. God is not the author of sickness and suffering – those things are a result of the fall. So totally disagree with him on that point. When Jesus came to the earth He healed the sick, He did suffer, but only for a season, when He was in the process of bringng salvation to humanity. His suffering ended when His job was complete. And we are to do greater things than Jesus did (apart from providing the way for salvation). Anyone who says God gave them sickness is totally deceived. I will now read the rest of his testimony.
Annette – the scriptures say something about this, and this where we must align ourselves.
John 9:1-7 “As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” Having said these things, he spit on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man’s eyes with the mud and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.”
We see an example here of God allowing sickness in order that His glory might be shown. Justin Peters would be the first to acknowledge that his trials are God’s triumph in his life.
Isaiah 45:7 “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.”
WOF Brian was certainly not taliking about minor setbacks and challenges in life which may be just for a while or season. He is not talking about headaches and muscle pain, WOF never think of small problems when talking about challenges like persecution, suffering and sickness. They think of faith that move mountains not little molehills. Yes, he tells you to choose friends that have mind sets and big faith that move mountains and to stay away from those who say we are not exempted from the consequences of this fallen world. A lot of big name and claim and nothing happens.Even the master of them all, Yonggi Cho is unable to overcome his problem with all his positive energy and power of positive confession and visualisation and had to resort to using church funds to help his son.
Annette, you are right in saying sickness and sufferings are the results of the fall and God is not the cause. But for reasons we will never fully understand this side of eternity, why is it that He has full control and yet allows them to happen after starting off with a perfect creation. He is not the cause of CP in Justin Peters and the minority having it but He certainly is in full control and could have stopped these people from having CP. If we ask why these minority suffers from CP and not others, it is akin to asking why God in His sovereign power permitted it to happen to them and not others. Justin Peters could have better said God ‘permitted’ CP to fall on him instead of ‘gave’ or will’ to him which you fairly took issue on. God also chose not to heal him, Joni and many others. In that sense again he might not be totally wrong to say that God allowed or chose to ‘give’ him these suffering to bear for His divine reasons. But yet he is not angry but acceptance of God’s plan and purpose for his life here on earth. I don’t worry too much about Justin’s biblical understanding. He is biblically sound. But God has already executed His plans through His Son at Calvary to deal with the spiritual and physical consequences of the fall. And surely in eternity, we will all be healed by His stripes with a new infallible resurrected body.
@Annette – Brian’s ‘Jesus’ would probably be part of the ‘cafe’ latte’ crowd and not condescend to drink cappuccinos with mere mortals like us. Our Jesus:
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” (Phil 2:6-8)
Now there’s an example that all of us should follow… persecution and even death if need be…
As for trials and persecution, they may not happen all the time, but when they do come, they come for a purpose:
“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:” (1 Peter 1:7)
True ministries are forged in the ‘fiery trials’ of life – they do not come out of “cookie cutter” Bible schools, with Mickey Mouse theology in tow! Look at John the Baptist – which Bible school did he come from? Or Paul, who spent 4 years in the desert of Arabia, receiving divine revelation concerning Christ and the New Testament from God.
I am not saying that Bible study/learning is not right or OK – it is:
“Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:14, 15)
What you have to make sure of, is that the ‘word’ you are being taught is balanced, wholesome and is being ‘divided rightly’ by men of God who have a proven track record, to the point where their teaching ministry is bearing fruit in the lives of those who follow it. Jesus said:
“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” (Matthew 7:16)
If it comes from God, then it will be honouring to Christ and will point people back to Him – He is the central figure in all of human history and anyone who wants to take that away and step out into the limelight themselves in place of Him, is to be avoided at all costs…
What you also have to be careful of is that, if you do go to ‘Bible school’ that you don’t become embroiled with an “indoctrination centre” – where man made ‘church’ doctrines are promoted and the fruit that results is still rotting on the vine years later, because no one who has any kind of discernment wants to partake of it:
“But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;” (Titus 3:9,10)
I agree with you, Austin. Trials are a necessary part of our sanctification, and process of maturing in Christ. A bit of suffering is good for us, it purges us from sin and also tests our faith. However, hope deferred makes the heart sick and comes from the enemy. He wants to annihilate our faith, so we turn from God and do the devils will. I agree that true ministries are forged in the fiery trials of life, not from cookie cutter Bible schools. Also, I don’t agree with anyone judging a persons struggles and saying, it’s because you don’t have enough faith. That’s nasty and playing God.
Hi Annette – I remember your regrets about Bible School etc from 2 weeks ago – well, God is God and He can take all our apparent failures and turn them into success – in Him! Not the kind of ‘success’ that these worldly churches teach and promote… property, money, influence, health and notoriety.
Consider Joseph, who God gave dreams to as a confirmation of his future in the overall scheme of things. He was betrayed by his own brothers, sold as a slave, then apparent success came his way for a time, as he was made ruler over Potipher’s house.
Seduction from ‘Mrs. Potipher’ failed, and so then along came false accusations, and Joseph was tossed into prison, to be forgotten. It looked like all of Joseph’s hard work and faithfulness in the house of Potipher had come to nothing, but God who sees and hears al had not forgotten, from above, made a way out of that prison for the young man of God.
As a result of correctly interpreting Pharoah’s dreams, Joseph went from jailbird to prime minister in less than a day! When it is God’s timing to raise up a genuine ministry (truly tried in the fiery trials for years) then nothing can stop it – it is God’s appointed time, and the man of God will take his rightful place.
Whereas the imposters and deceivers who put him in jail are then exposed for what they are (the brothers, Mrs Potipher, the butler, baker, etc) were all dealt with by God at the appropriate times, and nothing that they did or said could ultimately prevent Joseph’s rise to power – it was all of God…
A life that is lived for God shines in a dark place, and people do notice the difference. It seems strange to us that on days when we feel that we are at our worst, God is at His best:
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
Phil 2:12)
This is so that when the time comes for you to ‘shine’ more publically, you will be ready – the fiery trials will have brought forth ‘gold’ – the nature and character of God, and the old you will be no more…
It is this kind of “faith building” trial that the Bible speaks about, one that tesst us to let us know where we are at – God already knows, but we are yet to see ourselves as He sees us, and thus be moulded and shaped by the Master’s hand.
Annette,
Trials are a necessary part of our sanctification, and process of maturing in Christ.
In fact, we are sanctified once and for all through the cross of Christ.
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
“For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.”
And we are sanctified by the truth, which is God’s Word and Spirit revealed in Christ, but, even in this, it is Christ who is sanctified on our behalf through the cross and resurrection, so that we are sanctified in Him when we receive Him as Lord.
“And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.”
And our sanctification is of Christ, and not of works. he became, for us, sanctification.
“But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God–and righteousness and sanctification and redemption– that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”
We are sanctified, made holy, cleansed, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ at the new birth through the Spirit, having repented and renounced our sin.
“But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
Fiery trials are tests of faith. They test our faith in the crucible of persecution and suffering for the faith where gold is purified through fire. It os where we find out if our faith is genuine or artificial.
“In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith–the salvation of your souls.”
And the trying of our faith produces endurance for future trials, which complete us.
“My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.”
But our sanctification, redemption, righteousness and justification are in Christ alone, through faith in His cross.
Delaney – yes, Jesus paid the price for our sins to be forgiven, and when we are walking with Christ and believing in His covering for our sins, when God sees us He sees Christ. We are hidden in Christ. However, at the point of our salvation we do not suddenly become perfect and pure. That will ultimately only happen when Jesus comes back and takes us to glory, or you die and eventually go to heaven. But the work of sanctification and transformation is a process.
The cross takes care of all sin, once and for all. That is sanctification. We are justified. Made guilt free. If we then sin we confess that sin and the Father will forgive us. But our initial repentance and acceptance of God’s grace through faith in Christ is what brings us into Christ. It is his sanctification, and his righteousness which cleanses us.
There is nothing we can do to sanctify ourselves, or justify ourselves. It is all of Christ.
It is the trying of our faith which brings about endurance.
Our victory is in Christ, nothing of ourselves.
We are already complete in him.
And the cross was not a ‘covering’ for sins. It completely removed sin. Once and for all. It is an Old Testament concept to talk about a covering for sin. This was accomplished through the sacrifice of bulls and the sprinkling of blood, and only ever covered for sins.
But the blood of Jesus was shed for all. He is a propitiation, not a covering. It was an exchange. His life for ours. He was the Ransom paid to redeem.
Our sin is cast as far as the East is from the West. It was only covered you would still be bearing it in some way, but he removed it, being made sin so that we could be made the righteousness of God in him.
Sorry, it should say, ‘If it was only covered you would still be bearing it in some way, but he removed it, being made sin so that we could be made the righteousness of God in him.’
I don’t know anyone who sinless and pure at the point of salvation, or ever. Yes, positionally we are made pure, we are hid in Christ. God doesn’t see our sin, He sees Jesus who is pleading with God on our behalf, continually.
“Can someone please come defend Brian?? ;)”
Okay. I’ll give it a try.
“In the face of life’s challenges, surround yourself with positive, faithfilled words that challenge the problem and focus on answers.”
I think most people would agree with that. Focusing on answers and solutions is a great idea. When I get sick, I think most people go to the doctor. They don’t think how great it is and rejoice that they are sick. No, they take their kids to the doctor and they pray too depending on their beliefs. I know a lot of depressed people who do nothing but think about their problems. Many times they could solve them. Or get help. But sitting around and complaining doesn’t work. That’s probably what Brian is saying.
“Your environment is critical at such times.”
True! Get laid off from a job and hang around unemployed people who have given up, and you’ll realise it’s not a great environment. Good advice. It’s also why many middle class people (perhaps some of you included – choose where your kids live and go to school and who they hang around with.
“Carefully choose your friends, your counsel, and your place of worship.”
Yep. See above. Where you worship is important. Some of you think the wrong choice would be Hillsong. Others thing a wrong choice would be the local Catholic church. And some of you would think that the only place worth worshiping at would be at home on the internet with other “discerners”….. But, most Christians think it’s important where you go to church, and most EVERYONE would agree that you should choose who you get advice or counsel from.
“Avoid those whose belief system is devoid of answers for life’s everyday problems.”
Yep. No problem with that statement.
“Never accept the mindset that persecution and suffering are the will of God; they are the weapons of the devil who is hell-bent on distracting you from God’s amazing plan for your life.”
Okay, so this is probably the only statement some Christians would object too, and of course has sent the discerners into raging overdrive.
But, those of us who believe in a literal Devil probably agree that he is trying to distract people from God’s plan for their lives. Of course, some of you disagree at how much power he has. i.e. The Devil tempted Jesus in the Wilderness. If I asked whether it would have been possible for Jesus to succumb to the temptation, then we have a big theological discussion. Many will argue that it was a forgone conclusion that Jesus answered with scripture and overcame. What we understand about Christ comes into this. But we know he hungered and we know that he was “in all points tempted”.
But, leave that huge question aside. I think the Devil if he exists tries to attack us and disrupt us. Persecution is one way. Many people think that some of the problems Paul had were instigated by the devil. Others here might say God allowed them. Whatever the case, unless you believe God MAKES people persecute others in that we are all just pawns in God’s great plan, then the persecution and whipping that Paul received wasn’t something that God and his angels dished out, but the attempts of the devil to thwart the preaching of the gospel.
As for suffering? Well what kind of suffering? If people are suffering because they are hungry than they can sit around a thank God that they are hungry and tell everyone how hunger is part of being a Christian and the trials of this life …or they can go get some food. Or a job. Or go raise money to give to people who have no food.
Suffering? What suffering is there in your great country of Australia? Probably 90% of it could be alleviated if people stopped taking drugs, eating too much, smoking, drinking too much alcohol, abusing people, etc. And if more people worked harder, gave to the poor, volunteered, came up with great ideas, sought medical treatment, came up with medical breakthroughs, had better safety standards, and did everything within their powers and wisdom and intelligence to make a safer, better country, then most of the problems would be solved.
His audience were probably Sydney-siders. So, how much persecution do you have down there. Really. Come on tell me! I’d say, most of you here are the ones doing the persecution of Brian Houston!!! So, can each of you tell me the last time YOU were persecuted? And how much it hurt? ………
But if you keep having a mindset of persecution and suffering, then maybe you will stop going out and doing what you are capable of. And think you are being persecuted when you aren’t.
As for Paul, if he were in Sydney right now, what would he do. I think he’d be rejoicing that young people are being baptised in Hillsong. He’d probably enjoy the worship. he’d probably go see Houston and offer to go on a mission trip and start more churches.
I doubt very much whether he’d just start a blog instead and critique other preacher’s sermons….. though he MAY do that if he had time.
Probably unlike most of you, I actually KNOW people who have been persecuted. Disowned from their families for believing in Jesus etc. And I am aware of the REAL persecution in North Korea and many countries. Do you think Brian Houston really doesn’t know that some Christians are in jail right now? Do you honestly think that Brian Houston thinks that everyone in a North Korean jail is lacking in faith. I say, of course not!
But, suffering doesn’t always last. And even if it does, your mindset is important.
Read up on Victor Frankl, watch Life is Beautiful, and look at Paul rejoicing and singing while in prison. Thinking “I’m being persecuted and I’m suffering and this is great and it’s the will of God, and it will continue like this until I die” is not the right or biblical mindset.
If they had the internet in 1942 some Christians would have been saying it was the end of the world, and suffering is inevitable, and there’s no hope. Others went out and helped solve the problem. Same with ww1 and the depression.
Okay, I could say more. but there you go. I think you are all too hard on Brian Houston.
But if you REALLY think that commenting and attacking Brian Houston for a paragraph that he wrote 12 years ago is the will of God, and something you will be proud of for eternity…..then….so be it.
Aren’t you all so spiritual!
Okay, you can all get back to your persecution and suffering now. (In between your attacks on a Christian leader who has done what no other minister in Australian history has done).
Keep smiling guys!
You are very judgmental yourself, Q. “I know a lot of depressed people who do nothing but sit around and think about their problems” Depression is a mental illness, and should not be judged. Its people like you, Q, whom I will try and stay away from. You are very harsh in your statements, a sign of ignorance . Also pp’s favourite saying was ” if you want to fly with the eagles don’t hang around the turkey’s”. I find that statement abhorrent and prideful. Personally I’d prefer to hang around the “turkey’s”. They are real people not pumped up, over the top looney tunes.
Annette, there is a difference between people who are depressed and those who have been diagnosed with the mental illness known as clinical depression.
Okay, instead of “depression” make that “I know some people who sit around moaning and moping”. Is that better?
As for eagles and turkeys, people have said similar things for generations. Your grandma probably did, and to a large extent it’s true.
Q – No-one I have associated with has ever used that saying about eagles and turkeys, and if they did I would immediately tell them not to be so nasty and judgmental. But then again I don’t associate with shallow minded nasty people who would make such a horrible comment. It’s even worse when it comes from a church leader. As for the depression issue, who am I to judge why a person is depressed and how they cope with it, or don’t cope with it. ” I know people who sit around moaning and moping” – that comment is arrogant, full of pride and completely non compassionate and ignorant. Since leaving c3 I’ve become more caring and understanding towards people (being in that church environment made me shallow and harsh). Q – you are definitely someone I would stay away from, your attitude and comments indicate that you are not a nice person and are extremely shallow and ignorant.
All comments go into moderation for a reason, personal attacks not permitted. Stay on topic guys.
I didn’t find anything backing up Brian Houston, only a self-indulgent rant of your own ‘theories’. It does remind me of the story of a soccer player who was the fastest man on the field. Unfortunately, he frequently forgot to take the ball with him.
Q -“I know a lot of depressed people who do nothing but think about their problems. Many times they could solve them. Or get help. But sitting around and complaining doesn’t work. That’s probably what Brian is saying”.
Do you mean Hill-mart, sorry, hillsong Mercy Ministries? who said “Depression is a sign of sin? And a supernatural spirit of destruction straight from the devil”.
What a caring ‘church’…recently ‘shelved’ by hillsong because of the Australian public outrage.
“If people are suffering because they are hungry than they can sit around a thank God that they are hungry and tell everyone how hunger is part of being a Christian and the trials of this life …or they can go get some food”.
AFRICA and EITHIOPIA, ‘Q’ has solved your problems…just go and get some food..BUT don’t forget to ‘tithe’ us 10% of it.
And finally you referring to the Apostle Paul,… “He’d probably enjoy the worship. he’d probably go see Houston and offer to go on a mission trip and start more churches”..
There it is ….even in your opinion the Apostle Paul would have to go ‘see houston’.
Really? So even the Apostle Paul would have to acknowledge houston’s superiority. That is just demonic.
The Biblical apostle Paul would have to get through the ‘greeters’ [just like Wal-Mart] , then security, then bobbie just to see your false idol Brian?
Wouldn’t Paul question why Bobbie was called ‘Pastor” ? That it defied the Holy Word of God?
Would the Apostle Paul agree to ‘tithe’ to this ‘church’ when he knows it isn’t Biblical truth? Paul would have seen houston alright…just like the Apostle Peter saw Simon Magus.
Mercy Ministries were abusive, the way they treated people with emotional, mental problems. It was absolutely shocking. Very ignorant.
@thetruth. First Houston is not my idol. Also, I don’t know why you are upset about “greeters”. Many churches have people who greet people. Are you against any church that has greeters now? As for Africa and Ethiopa, my point is that many problems can be saved. Actually Bill Gates and many others are actively trying to reduce poverty and illness in third world countries. Which is my point. Instead of sitting around and accepting suffering, we should ACT towards alleviating it. It’s also a biblical idea. And I was addressing you there in Australia, suggesting you could do more to alleviate poverty in Australia.
Perhaps you should read more slowly?
“So even the Apostle Paul would have to acknowledge houston’s superiority. That is just demonic.”
You got that from a lighthearted ” he’d probably go see Houston”?
I suggest you take a remedial reading and comprehension course at your local primary school.
Now, what I say is demonic???? Hey Annette, there’s another judgemental person! lol
Wow. Demonic???
btw
” If you are subject to depression and melancholy, you of all people should not allow your conscience to be informed by your feelings. Despondent feelings will provoke unnecessary doubts and fears in the soul when not kept in check by a well-advised conscience. The conscience must be persuaded by God’s Word, not by your feelings.”
Guess who said that?
but, I’m surprised that you have seized on depression, and now some of you have turned this into a full on attack on Mercy Ministries… wow, Angry people.
I don’t know much about Mercy Ministries. But I do know that some people here would be attacked by secular psychologists for their opinions about homosexuality and what homosexuals should do regarding their sexual desires.
Shall we discuss that?
Hi Annette, here’s a link to the website called “Mercy Survivors”. It might have some rather guresome tales to tell, so approach with caution:
http://mercysurvivors.com/tag/australian-scandal/
and here’s Lisa Hamacher’s story – so typical of cultish mind control and behavioural control:
http://thetruthaboutmercy.wordpress.com/
Note that not all of the stories linked to this site are from Oz, as Mercy Ministries was international in its scope. most of the material goes back as far as 2008 so it is dated,
The most recent material being posted about a year ago (as far as I could tell,) but that does not make the testimonies of the victims any less real, nor does it take away from the sheer lack of accountability of those in leadership roles at that time.
Q -“I don’t know much about mercy ministries” – obviously, from your comments, it shows. So why make a comment about something you don’t know much about? Also – ” but I do know some people here would be attacked by secular psychologists for their opinions about homosexuality and what homosexuals should do about their sexual desires”. Surely you must be joking, please tell me your comment is a joke, if you are serious then your deception is worse than I initially thought. What’s psychology got to do with Christianity, it’s origins are pagan – Austin, you are probably more knowledgeable in this area. Q – I follow what God’ Word says about homosexuality, and God is very clear on the issue. I certainly hope you are not in any leadership role, Q, if so then the condition of church is much worse than I realised. Crazy!
Q – ” you of all people should not allow your conscience to be informed by your feelings ….” That’s an ignorant statement. Text book Christianity with no real understanding on the mind, trauma, repressed memories, etc.
” So why make a comment about something you don’t know much about? ”
Because I am sure that most of the people involved in counselling at Mercy Ministries were very sincere people, and probably said and did things much the same as David Wilkerson did ^ a man who was esteemed by many evangelicals and pentecostals. (Ask Austin the AOG man).
“Also – ” but I do know some people here would be attacked by secular psychologists for their opinions about homosexuality and what homosexuals should do about their sexual desires”. Surely you must be joking, please tell me your comment is a joke, if you are serious then your deception is worse than I initially thought.
You missed my point. And it wasn’t a joke. Many of the attacks on Mercy Ministries were backed up from secular psychologists. You can team up with the secular psychologists against Mercy Ministries and feel great. BUT, if you tomorrow counselled some people from a biblical perspective, and that person went to a psychiatrist complaining that they were confused, then you could find yourself in the papers too. You talk about a Devil. Okay, tell a person you are counselling about the Devil, and see what happens when the next day they go to a secular counsellor. You will be accused of being similar to Mercy Ministries. Many of the things they were accused of were things like teaching about evil spirits, and that homosexuality was sin.
You teach that are you’d be attacked too.
“What’s psychology got to do with Christianity, it’s origins are pagan”
Okay, once again. Instead of bashing me, how about you go counsel some homosexuals. or girls with problems. Will you tell them that? If so, you will be attacked and accused of the same things they were at Mercy Ministries.
Hundreds of psychologists would accuse you of being ABUSIVE and neanderthal and dangerous for your comments and beliefs, and they would warn people against listening to you.
” Austin, you are probably more knowledgeable in this area”
Okay, bring it on Austin. Don’t you people see the irony of attacking Mercy Ministries when you believe many of the same things. Okay here’s a test. Go to a secular counselling website and tell them how bad Mercy Ministries is then tell them what you think about homosexuality and psychology. Hint – you will be lampooned and attacked! And if you were involved in counselling as a profession you might be in danger of losing your job.
“Q – I follow what God’ Word says about homosexuality, and God is very clear on the issue. I certainly hope you are not in any leadership role, Q, if so then the condition of church is much worse than I realised. Crazy!”
Annette, I hope you are not in any teaching role or in anything to do with education. Because you don’t know what I think about homosexuality. Your comment is……crazy!
lol
“Q – ” you of all people should not allow your conscience to be informed by your feelings ….” That’s an ignorant statement. Text book Christianity with no real understanding on the mind, trauma, repressed memories, etc.”
hmmm so you are all for textbook Christianity when it comes to homosexuality. But when it comes to depression, you will be open to studying the mind and repressed memories which is taught by psychologists. Modern understanding that is taught about the mind, trauma, repressed memories etc all comes from the world of psychology – which as we all know……is pagan in origin.
By the way….that quote above is from none other than the all knowing, all wonderful, theologian whose name will elicit gasps of admiration……the right reverend John Mcarthur!
Oh yes. The Pope of new Calvinism!
So. Brian Houston or Q will be attacked for daring to talk about depressed people.
Johnny Mac has said some terrible things too! Go get him Annie!
But….be warned. Some people around here won’t be happy.
Q. – “hmm so you are all for textbook Christianity when it comes to homosexuality but when it comes to depression you will be open to studying the mind and repressed memories which is taught by psychologists….. The right reverend John Mcarthur!” Again you are wrong, Q. I am merely saying don’t call right wrong and wrong right. Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything else comes from the evil one.i don’t judge homosexuals at all, I don’t know what they are going through and I certainly don’t have any understanding in that regard. It’s not something I struggle with. But Gods Word says it’s wrong and it’s sin. However homosexuals are trying to says its normal and a new form of sexuality, that God made them that way, which totally contradicts Gods Word. As for repressed memories, studying the mind, etc, all I know is I have a mind, I have repressed memories, etc, etc, but what I have learnt through my walk with God, and the counsel of the Holy Spirit, and my journey of being set free and healed, no psychologist has taught me. The Holy Spirit is my counsellor and healer.
Q – I don’t know anything about John McArthur, and I’m not a Calvinist, I don’t know much about Calvinism and I don’t understand it. I’m just on a walk with God, and I’m open to learning. I take truth and my walk with God as the most important thing in my life. But it’s a joyous journey, even throughout the trials. I’m still in shock, in a good way, that God actually exists and is who He is. It’s amazing!
@Annette. I’m glad to hear your testimony. Very cool. (seriously)
Hey ‘q’..what do you think about this: “It is not my place to defend or try to explain what Mercy Ministries has or hasn’t done. Hillsong has done nothing wrong. Hillsong is not under investigation, but a number of KEY PEOPLE from Hillsong Church over the years, have been involved in Mercy Ministries”.B.Houston 27 Oct, 2009.
Hey Q!!
Mate this is not a personal “attack” as such, but just wanna check your theology.
You said above that “I think the Devil if he exists tries to attack us and disrupt us.”
So where are you pulling your Scriptural interpretations and views of the church from if you don’t even acknowledge the devil? (Not that he’s worthy of anything). Are you even a Christian?
I was thinking the exact thing Squidaloopa.
I believe in the existence of a Devil. Yes I am a Christian.
Eh Q
“Many of the attacks on Mercy Ministries were backed up from secular psychologists. You can team up with the secular psychologists against Mercy Ministries and feel great. BUT, if you tomorrow counselled some people from a biblical perspective, and that person went to a psychiatrist complaining that they were confused, then you could find yourself in the papers too.”
OK I might not find many supporters here, but I agree with you to a point here. I have probably reached it by (trying to) argue with atheists on a regular basis.
Yes as Christians we believe homosexuality is a sin, not as God planned it (I’ll deal with this issue only for now). Whether or not the whole point of being “born gay” is true or not (or as Christians would quote Romans 1:26-27 about exchanging sexual relationships as a basis for this), me walking up to the gay guy at work and saying, “Bob, you are sinning by being gay”. What’s he gonna say? In a probably not nice way, “Be quiet”. They don’t care. They believe it is natural, the State and Federal law makes many allowances for them in the name of non-discrimination.
Now – someone goes to MM to be counselled. They talk about their sexuality. NOW – unless the person has agreed to be counselled from a Biblical perspective, or the counsellor is doing it anyway, they are going to provide a completely conflicting result as opposed to a non-Biblical counsellor, either in church or a practice (I can’t fathom what a Christian, non-Biblically counsellor would say about homosexuality in this environment). And as you say – they go to another counsellor or psychologist and MM or other similar service will be slaughtered because of their stance.
It’s just like having Christian “chaplains” in schools – like proselytising. When I was in school, the chaplains were Christian, we even had Christian religious assemblies, and my schools were public. Very different now. Chaplains have to tow the secular line and be pretty much counsellors. However – in the example I gave about the person agreeing to be counselled in a Biblical manner – is just like private schools. In many Christian schools around the world there is no compromise this. If you go to that counsellor and agree on Biblical counselling – if you go to a Christian school – you will be told what Christians believe is true.
Otherwise, people don’t care, and like when debating with atheists, Christianity is rubbished and made to look like it’s Stone Age. If you don’t believe me – find some atheists and debate evolution with them. Or read some Richard Dawkins quotes to see what many people think about God.
@squidaloop.
I know about debating atheists. And I know their opinions about homosexuality. I probably agree with your stance on homosexuality.
I think girls going into Mercy Ministries knew that it was a Christian organisation, and I’d say they probably knew what a conservative Christian organisation would think about homosexuality. I’ll go further and say that 20 or even 30 years ago, Mercy Ministries would not have been attacked the way it is now.
Now any Christian organisation will have to be extremely careful about what they say about sin, demonic affliction and homosexuality. Because all you need is one person out of 100 to go to the media and complain that their sexual orientation was sin, and that it was insinuated in any way that their problems could in any way be slightly related to “evil spirits”. I don’t know Mercy Ministries intimately, but I do know many evangelical. pentecostal organisations that have tried to help people and operated largely on offerings and the volunteer/ or lowly paid work of very sincere Christian people who could have been doing other things.
I’m suggesting that the glee about the demise of Mercy Ministries and it’s vilification in the media, is misplaced. And some of you might see the day when other ministries and churches are treated the same way.
I also bet you will find many girls who are appreciated of the help they received there.
And for the record ……… I do not believe same-sex orientation is normal, good, beautiful or God-ordained. And I believe that sexual activity with another person who isn’t your spouse (of the opposite gender) is sin.
But we are fast approaching the time when it will be difficult to say that publicly at all. And especially not in even a Christian based counselling or medical program.
@squidaloopa
““Bob, you are sinning by being gay””
By the way, using this approach is the way we are losing the battle. And it’s using the term “gay” and “same-sex orientation” that the gay community have used to completely changed societal attitudes, because they’ve made Christians to be seen as hateful and discriminatory.
Basically, it is not a sin to be “gay” if the definition of that is being attracted to someone of the same sex.
It is no sin to be romantically or sexually attracted to someone who isn’t your current spouse. It’s sin to have sex with someone of your own sex. And it’s sin to fantasise about such. I can’t help being attracted to different women everyday. If I had my way, I’d spend the night with a different woman every day. Just because.
But I don’t. A man who isn’t attracted to women has my sympathy. And I would like to support him as much as possible. He isn’t sinning unless he has sex with a man.
Just saying. But I feel sorry for anyone in an organisation who has tried to help such a person by prayer, counselling, behaviour modification etc, who then gets labelled as being abusive and destructive.
That’s all.
“Brian’s ‘Jesus’ would probably be part of the ‘cafe’ latte’ crowd and not condescend to drink cappuccinos with mere mortals like us.”
What a sarcastic low down attack on a man not here to defend himself. Now the smear gets onto types of coffee…. Amazing. Buddy, you need to get out and enjoy life more.
“True ministries are forged in the ‘fiery trials’ of life”
No doubt. So, Houston should just praise God for all the attacks he receives at the hands of the super spiritual discerning ones….
Actually…. i think you’re right!! By George you are! The more you guys criticise Hillsong, the bigger they are getting!!!
Okay, bye for today.
Oh and Austin Powers, let me know tomorrow about today’s persecutions, sufferings and fiery trials. And don’t inlucemy response, or the discerning website browser loading too slowly !
🙂
Q – seriously what’s with the culture of bringing coffee into church these days? Are we all so desperate for a “fix” that we’re offended if we can’t bring our “mega mocha lite latte” inside during a service? Not to mention health and safety issues in churches with children sometimes underfoot, who wants to see their kids scalded by some random mega spill?
Maybe it’s because it’s cool and hip
Coffee into church..well wasn’t gloria jeans a good friend of hillsong?
Oh..and if you’re C3..don’t forget to stop by the ‘art’ lounge.
You might want to watch this youtube take on the coffee churches.
Link?
sorry guys here it is:
Still not showing up.
Sorry, I don’t know much about coffee and churches in Australia. But, I will say that every church I’ve been a part of for the last forty years has had some kind of refreshments. In the old days of Uniting Church there was often tea and biscuits underneath a photo of Queen Elizabeth in the church hall next to the church.
In Asia they give out Chinese tea, and Japanese tea depending on the country. And yes….sometimes coffee.
It’s not something that really makes me angry. Murder, terrorism, bashings, rape, Justin Bieber music – these make me mad. But not coffee. And not something Houston wrote in a book 12 years ago.
Cool and hip? They should repent. And so should Gloria Jean for….for….supplying coffee to church people?
Bye, I’m off to the Anglican church down the road to tell those too old spinsters to stop pouring out tea and sao biscuits! Next they’ll be giving out licorice after Sunday School!
No wait? It’s okay to do things that were cool and hip in the early 50’s? okay.
Guess what guys? I once went to a church that gave out red cordial and iced vovos. Congregational I think they were…
How hip was that? You better send them a cease and desist letter….
Gloria Jeans coffee in church…..my word! If we want real revival we better get rid of that fast! No more stumbling blocks!
@Q – I would assume that Brian or Phil are most welcome to come on the Churchwatcher websites and defend theselves – if they dare…
Perhaps the flak would be too heavy to navigate through, and any resultant clouds of black smoke may well spoil the cut and shine of those nice new Amani suits, or the quality of those crocodile skin shoes…?
Hey, what’s wrong with crocodile skin boots?! I was gonna get a pair when my 100 fold return comes back from my tithe!
Those guys spend so much time dodging questions you’d never see them. Could you imagine Phil trying to explain away the circumstances under which he got his doctorate in public? I’m surprised no 60 Minutes type program has gone after him yet…
I wouldn’t recommend they do. They’d have to defend every question about suits, shoes, artwork, coffee, motorbikes, things they wrote 12 years ago, everything about their salary, women pastors, …..calvinism….you name it. If you guys wrote a list of accusations how many pages would it come to?
I wouldn’t advise Billy Graham to come here either. Nor the Apostle Paul. Who knows, maybe he’d say the wrong thing about depression and get slammed for that.
@ Q – I honestly don’t know how Paul would have time to go out and start false churches for Brian (the only kind he likes to own,) or why he’d want to. This was the apostle Paul’s schedule when he was in town:
” Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren.” Apostle Paul ( 2 Corinthians 11:25, 26)”
It is not just Paul’s words that you are doubting Q, you are calling into question the very word of God on the matter, and all because you want to defend Hill$ong?
it is self evident from a reading of the relevant scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, that the people of God, regardless of whichever covenant, testamen, dispensation they were under, siffered persecution and even death, at the hands of evil men and women. Read Hebrews 11 – the real “hall of faith”:
“32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:”
So it goes to show us that there were tremendous victories for the people of God and also trials of cruel mockings and scourgngs etc… There was both – there still is both, but you’ll never get to hear about that coming from these ‘balsa wood pulpits’ that preach about “your best life now…” being health, wealth and prosperity.
In other words, hyperfaith disguised as real faith, and a false ‘feel good’ “gospel” in place of the real Gospel, which demands a surrender to the self sacrificing call of God upon the life of the believer – even to the point of persecution and death.
It’s allright to talk about the suffering saints in North Korea, but I don’t think that you’ll find Brian or Phil on a jet plane going there anytime soon – the ‘fallout’ from Yoido ‘Full Gospel’ church is nuclear in its proportions and we wouldn’t want those two ‘great men of God’ coming anywhere near that rather embarrassing radiation cloud, now, would we Q?
I don’t know about the fallout from Yoido Church. Have many people left?
So, when are you leaving for North Korea?
There are no people in Sydney experiencing the Hebrews 11 stuff. If Australia came to be a place of persecution like that, we have no idea whether Houston or Austin will act in those times. Seriously. Everyone’s a hero until they go into battle.
One day you might be sharing a cell with Houston being persecuted for your faith. You’ll probably find he’ll be praying and encouraging you and praising God.
But who knows. But as for Sydney 2014? Are you going into the marketplace like Paul and getting stoned.
I think if Paul were alive today he would be using the internet, and he would be flying around to places. And I think he’d start churches. And if thousands came to his church, he’d be praising God.
Who knows, he might even hand out coffee.
@ Q Hey – you missed all seven scriptures – not one single comment on what God’s word says about suffering and persecution – but then again, I suppose that this is characteristic of your kind of blindness – can’t see em or don’t want to? Are you living in a Bible vacuum Q? Been reading the sugar coated Message again?
“I don’t know about the fallout from Yoido Church. Have many people left?”
Well at least one pastor left – he’s currently in jail for fraud! Isn’t that a clear enough warning that maybe the rest should leave too, not to mention his father, who is on a suspended jail sentence…
i’m not exactly sure just what the people of Sydney are experiencing en masse right now Q, but I can tell you that anyone associated with Hill$ong and C3 are experiencing massive deception in the name of God. Blasphemy and heresy…
I don’t believe that Brian will be going to jail for his beliefs just yet, but then again he could be going there for other rea$on$, couldn’t he Q?
“Are you going into the marketplace like Paul and getting stoned.”
Q, I am being verbally ‘stoned’ by you several times a week – ouch! It still hurts…
I am sure that Paul would use the internet in our day too – in order to expose Houston, Pringle, Warren and every other “Christian Crook” on the face of the planet.
Paul did start churches – and he taught them sound doctrine. Do you really think that he would dish up the New Age anti-doctrinal slop that Houston and Pringle spout from their pulpits each week? Honestly? – NO!
As for the coffee, well, I’ll have a double shot and four sugars please – I’m just not sweet enough without my sugar, am I Q?
@Austin.
So tell me about your persecution Austin. And suffering. And don’t count diabetes from all the sugar in your coffee.
So now Warren is a crook too? What about Billy Graham. Was he a crook?
No I don’t think Houston will be going to jail for other reasons.
So you think everyone should leave Yoida Full Gospel Church? And go where?
Austin’s Pad?
I think every Christian will probably experience suffering at one time of their lives.
I think most people will experience persecution of SOME level.
I think if you think you are being stoned by me then you are a complete pussy and need to harden up. And you stone so much I think I’ll call you Stone Cold Austin.
And you are seriously hurting? Wow. For a guy who spends so much time attacking ministers from all over the globe you are surprisingly sensitive. Another give it but can’t take it bully?
Calm down Stone Cold. And let me hand you a tissue to while those tears away.
@”: “I think if you think you are being stoned by me then you are a complete pussy and need to harden up”.
Who do you think YOU think you are? You think you can disgrace Christianity by your filthy comments? You only disgrace yourself and your ‘friend’ delancey.
Amen, the truth, such vile words from a sinful heart. That’s the fruit of the evil one, and we all know the evil one is the devil himself. A child of God would not make such a comment, and if they did they would repent and ask for forgiveness.
@squidaloopa – and guess what – If you buy your crocodile skin shoes through Hill$ong, they’ll give you a free coffee voucher AND a GJ’s coffee cup to go with it…!
I first came across the “Coffee Club Church” back in 2007 at the old River City Church here in Brisbane. People would just come in through the front door (whole families, groups of friends,) and most of them would have their large or long tall take away coffee cups in their hands, and after the meeting began, they’d start jiving to the music (whose music?) while they were swinging their hops and sipping on a cuppa – it was the wierdest thing I ever saw in church. I wondered just what that crowd would introduce next…
But then the ‘pastor’ who liked to include revelations from Bono and U2 in his sermons all the time, sold the building to Metro Church (so they had to rebrand all the cups, table cloths and t-shirts with the new logo,) and then when that ‘church’ changed their name to ISee – they did it again – and they could afford to,as they got some whopping $15 million dollars for the property when they sold it in 2011.
Now that’s pretty good going for the coffee drinking church… I’ll have a double shot and four sugars in mine thanks… 🙂
Yeah, and there was a time when Christians used to have church in homes and eat together. That sounds weird to some people two. And some people ate too much and others even got drunk. Nothing much has changed.
The point is not whether the people drank coffee in a 15 million dollar church building, or they met in homes and ate together, it’s whether they love God and each other, and are following Jesus.
PS According to rumour, some of those people in Metro Church used digital watches instead of sun dials to tell the time.
Coffee in church…..ichabod! You should have taken up a whip and driven them out!
@ Q
“Coffee in church…..ichabod! You should have taken up a whip and driven them out!”
I didn’t have to Q – the pastor “sold them out” – to another coffee drinking church called ISee – remember…?
Sorry CW..everytime i post the link the video comes up.
Anyhoo…back to the topic…houston/hillsong ‘christianity…Not like the bible at all is it?
We’ve got Allah being the same God, bobbie spruiking her ‘god-colours’ [whatever that is…so very chris pringle], Hillsong taking God’s ‘tithes’ or just minding it for Him until He comes to collect, Is Hillsong ‘christian’ ? Not sure.
See it now.
“Not like the bible at all is it?”
It’s a business, nothing more nothing less. It’s in the business of making people feel good, by dangling a carrot of wealth and riches which “may” be theirs one day if they just keep at it. They use their definition of “God” as the focal point of this business, but as I mentioned before it’s not the God of the bible.
Don’t underestimate the fact that some people will have more social interaction at these churches than they would without it, they can be a lot of fun and people form genuine friendships. Also don’t underestimate how much sex happens between teenagers/ young adults at these places, they’re great places to pick up dates as well. The music is upbeat, exciting, the message is always great, everyone gets a price, and things will be wonderful. But it has a price, and that’s 10% of your income plus whatever else they ask for. It’s a lot, but that’s why the “you’ll get it back in multiples” line is so important.
“Also don’t underestimate how much sex happens between teenagers/ young adults at these places,”
You guys really are class A gossips aren’t you. No, slanderers is the word. What a horrible thing to say. So, does more sex happen at Hillsong than at the Uniting Church down the road? You really need to get out and do something productive.
Here on just one page Hillsong has been attacked because of armani suits, crocodile shoes, coffee, underestimated sexual activity – where does it end?
No, Brian and Phil, I don’t think you should come here to defend yourselves. The trial would last through half the millennium!
“Okay, you can all get back to your persecution and suffering now. (In between your attacks on a Christian leader who has done what no other minister in Australian history has done).”
Well that’s absolutely right Q – Brian Houston has done far more damage to the body of Christ than anyone else I know of. He has single-handedly taken a wrecking ball to all that was holy and true about the former AOG and then built his pagan, New Age, worldly, backslidden temple (called Hill$ong) on the remains of the rubble – and it shows!
Constantine, the first ‘christian emperor’ demolished 2 pagan temples in ancient Rome, and used those bricks to build the first ‘purpose built ‘church’ building (known as a Basicilla) – I’m just wondering Q – where does Brian get his ‘bricks’ from nowdays? Q’s brickyard, by the looks of it… If you throw any more bricks at this blogsite, poor old Brian won’t have any left to play with – no more Hill$ong temples…
AHEM – Good morning everybody – well, it looks like Q is waxing eloquent again in defending the undefendable. Here’s a link to a statement by a former Hillsong member, who was there from the time of Frank Houston’s Darlinghurst church, and who also attended Hills Christian Life Centre back in the late 1980s.
http://hillsongchurchwatch.com/2014/03/17/brian-houston-the-muslim-and-you-we-actually-serve-the-same-god/#comment-2256
I could say a lot more about Q’s unrighteous, boring little rants over the last few days, but in case you missed it earlier, over on the other thread, there it is – and I do believe that eye witness testimony often speaks much louder than any arguements we could mount – sometimes…
Christ said that He would build His church, not brian Houston or Phil Pringle – whatever they are building has no part in the kingdom of God.
Austin, how far do you go back in the AOG. Yes, you can find some people who think the “good old days” were better. But what percentage are they? AOG? The churches are much bigger now, and there are more young people getting baptised.
You want to go back to the 70’s and 80’s AOG? Most of the commentators here would have hated the AOG back then. Much more speaking in tongues and interpretation.
And people singing “He’s Coming Quickly” and preaching that in a few years the rapture would take place. And they were probably tougher about tithing.
I know about the AOG in the 70s and 80’s. Do you? You want the kids wearing ties again? The average Aussie didn’t know what AOG was. Now Hillsong music is the top of the pops. The average AOG member would have thought it was revival if worship music would be in the charts. They probably would never have believed such a time would come. “especially since most of them didn’t think we would still be here in 2014).
Here’s food for thought. Perhaps Hillsong and pentecostal churches are the way they are now in reaction to what went on before. Think about it. Most of the leaders now are sons of the old breed.
Thousands of young people lining up for a Christian service? Never saw that in the old AOG.
@Icarus – last year I posted in the story of a young woman who attended Hill$ong Brisbane, and I think that it’s worth repeating again. When I asked her about how it all worked, she said that the new church set up under Hill$song reminded her of a “shopping mall” – clothes, trinkets and other formatted advertising items were for sale, several offices and the book shop retail outlet etc, – all of those things reminded her of a “shopping mall”???
When I asked her about the emphasis, she said that youth was a big emphasis, although the youth population wasn’t all that big at the time, but that emphasis was probably in order to get more ‘youth’ into the ‘church’. Young people are impressionable and have lots of disposable income – for tithing no doubt.
She indicated that there was a lot of social activity including massive social networking at various events, and all through online media – dating and ‘networking’ were the end results of the ‘youth outreach’, and there was a church out the back somewhere, if you felt that you had a need for one?
That was the idea that many of the “church youth” had of the place. A shopping mall first, a dating milk bar second, with the concept of “church” coming in a very poor third. These are not my words – they are the words of an insider (who seemed a very nice, well mannered and respectful person to me,) who had been there for some years.
And her main reason for staying there, even after she’d seen all of the above? She still had friends and family that were very deeply into the dating/mating ‘shoppng mall’ theme of Hill$ong “church”…
Okay, so this is based on one person. Do you know the numbers of new people they have there now? Out of all the thousands there, how many want to go back to the pre-Hillsong days. But let’s remember that most of the people here would have hated the old Garden City -going right back to the Kliminok days based on your different ideas on theology and the nature of the church.
Also, this “insider” probably knows you and your thoughts on Hillsong.
So, a church having offices and bookstores and looking like a shopping mall is outrageous? Yes, they should rebuild and build something with 18th century architecture. Stained glass windows, hard wooden seating, the old hymn display thingy on the wall. That would be just grand and ……biblical. Perhaps a steeple?
Yep!
And social media should be banned. I’ll send a missive to leaders now and explain that the young people should only send hand written letters. Preferably written with quills.
If they don’t change I guess you’ll have to convince your insider to leave her friends and family and find a church that has no resemblance to a shopping mall.
Can you find one? Is a tape library at the back okay? Book library? Because most churches have those.
Good gosh. A tape library! Some churches look like…..libraries!!!
Look i think everyone should just worship on the internet. But no! Then the church will look like an internet website! And that would be worse.
Okay. let’s all just not meet. Maybe there’s an upper room or a mountain somewhere?
So, what does your church look like, and how many have they baptised this year?
PS I know people who love Hillsong Brisbane!
Got some serious sarcasm going on here – how about we treat each other with respect in responding, same rule applies to everyone. Fair questions deserve fair answers.
Anyone remember the line from the movie “Little Miss Sunshine”?
“Sarcasm is the refuge of losers.”
Yes Churchwatcher, I remember the movie Little Miss Sunshine, it was a really good movie.
Certainly there were some problems back then with AOG – for instance, the fact that pastor David Cartlidge brought C Peter Wagner to Australia in 1989 for his first tour – that was probably the beginning of the end – never mind Hill$ong – they were still learning to do their shoe laces up..
As for the general Pentecostal scene back then, you could still find plenty of good solid people in AOG and the other denominations – Four Square, Lighthouse, CRC, CLC. I met them, fellowshipped with them, and even on occasions outreached with them and helped them out in practical terms as I moved around the different churches.
I never said that churches were without problems. What I am saying Q, is that the likes of Hillsong and C3 have a huge sway over the modern church scene and it is thier unbiblical doctrines and practices, which are closer to paganism than they ever were Christian, that is eating away at the body of Christ in this country like a cancer.
Money raking, false prophecy, hyper faith NAR, Emergent, comtemplationist and so on – now do you see my concerns? As none of those things I just mentioned have any basis in Bible truth – not one, and yet they are preached from the pulpits of such places week after week, as if they were.
They do this with a view to taking the congregants for a ride so that they can give them a ‘feel good’ Anthony Robbins type of pep talk – call that a “church service” complete with rock music, regular appeals for ‘love offerings’ – and – well – coffee!
Then they send the shorn sheep off home, secure in the knowledge that they’ll be back for more next week (minus the ones who take this and other similar blogs more seriously,) and then the tithe buckets will be overflowing once more. It’s a scam – not a church in any real sense of the word – just another ‘Holy Ghost’ scam…
No sound doctrine is taught, no one grows, but everybody “feels good” after the meeting, because that is exactly what it was designed to do – make them feel good about parting with their money!
Churchwatcher.
So, will the commenters here tone down their sarcasm when it comes to Pringle, Houston, Kong, Warren?
Or are you only allowed to use sarcasm if you are attacking the above?
Okay, no more sarcasm from me.
@Q “I suggest you take a remedial reading and comprehension course at your local primary school”. Ahem…thank you for ‘ideas’ but that wouldn’t help me understand how you have solved all the world’s problems in one foul swoop.
So, the Apostle Paul ‘going to see houston’ is just a lighthearted nonsense now?
One can only hope the Apostle Paul will see it ‘your’ way.
I’ll make you a deal..i’ll take the comprehension course if you take the Bible comprehension and accuracy course..sound fair? Thanks again.
That’s funny, the truth. Also good advice to Q.
Okay, fair deal. I’ve read the bible several times. How many times have you read it.
Studied theology. Have you?
Okay, but I’ll take you up on it. What course would you suggest?
Calvins’s Institutes?
The Bible according to “thetruth”?
As i stated previously, I’m still waiting for your ‘defence’ of B.houston. All i’ve read are your ‘ideas’ about humanity. I think Brian would be quite disappointed.
Congratulations on reading the Bible ‘several times’, but i do not advise reading the hillsong approved ‘message’ version.
@Truth, I went through the quote from Hillsong line by line. And I don’t use the Message version. As for “ideas”, like I said, I went through every line of what was quoted. I found nothing wrong except the last sentence. I think every Christian will likely experience some kind of persecution, though some people could live in Australia and not experience much more than being insulted or misunderstood for their beliefs. But having read a lot and meeting many Asian Christians who know TRUE persecution, I’ve not really moved by Sydney-siders tales of woe.
And I think that every single person who lives will experience some kind of suffering – even if they live and die in a castle. But it’s all relative.
But, I’m surprised. Around here you won’t be accepted unless you are protestant, are against tithing, women pastors and you will even go after people for using the “message” version of the Bible. Not to mention offices, bookstores and …..coffee?
So how many people on the planet are in your little club! Pretty exclusive bunch!
thetruth,
@Q “I suggest you take a remedial reading and comprehension course at your local primary school”. Ahem…thank you for ‘ideas’ but that wouldn’t help me understand how you have solved all the world’s problems in one foul swoop.
That would be ‘one fell swoop’, thetruth.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines ‘fell’ as meaning ‘fierce, savage; cruel, ruthless; dreadful, terrible’, which is pretty unambiguous. I don’t think Q is in any way solving the world’s problems using any kind of savagery, though. It’s more like he’s pointing out your anomaly of thought using satire.
Unless you were attempting a pun with ‘foul’ which was aimed at your fellow chookwatchers. In which case it should have been ‘fowl’.
Which reminds me, as a point interest, of an Islamic café in my neighbourhood that had on its menu ‘foul soup’, by which they meant ‘fowl soup’! Not exactly a good promotion of their wares, but the clientele didn’t seem to notice.
Shakespeare coined the phrase in Macbeth, using both thoughts.
All my pretty ones?
Did you say all? O hell-kite! All?
What, all my pretty chickens and their dam
At one fell swoop?
Which kind of ties in nicely with Annette’s reference to eagles and turkeys, too.
Oh dear, wrong again delancey,perhaps you do not pick up sarcasm as well as you once thought. ‘Foul’ in nautical terms is to entangle and entwine, much the same as ‘q’ displays with his ‘ideas’..and with ruffled feathers.
Interesting you should mention Shakespeare. There once was a man who decided to cut out all the violence and sin from shakespeare to make it more ‘palatable’ to the public..exactly like hillsong and C3 attempt with the Holy Bible.
Consider that a gentle correction on using internet Dictionaries. God Bless.
Thetruth – have you ever gone to a charismatic/pentecostal church leader with concerns about theology or a visiting speaker, and received the response “just chew the meat and spit out the bones”?
Ask them what are the “bones” are and see what they say. Ask them why don’t they warn the church about the “bones” or at least discuss what they may be. And it’s a deadening silence as to just who the false teachers are “in these last days” the bible warns us about. Ever notice that?
Very good Steve, now you just need to learn how to spell “coop” correctly, as in “chicken coop”. Speaking of chicken “coupes”, how many visitors are you getting at the new site? (I notice that you have one article with one comment, which I suppose is a start, if a rather slow one). If the numbers are a touch low, maybe the people at C3 will pray for you – just as they did for that risible repository of drivel, the ill-fated and very short-lived C3churchwatchwatch. Maybe your supportive C3 prayer warriors didn’t have enough “faith”, or perhaps they neglected to “tithe” – or maybe it’s because you yourself don’t believe in tithing, and have thus put yourself and your family under a curse. Whatever went wrong, it’s clear that C3’s prayers for C3CWW had no effect whatsoever, since they failed miserably to prevent its untimely demise. (Aren’t the prayers of a righteous man powerful and effective, and isn’t God’s answer always “yes” and “amen”, Steve? Don’t C3 people have a 100% success rate when they petition the Lord?)
How embarrassing that little episode must have been for all concerned: it’s really sad that C3’s approved apologist on the web – the one who has received a nod of approval from the great Phil Pringle himself (previously a doctor, but now not so much) – can’t even so much as establish a compelling blog, while Phil’s many detractors have shown themselves to be both erudite and articulate, and have gone from strength to strength with a site that is growing daily and garnering attention around the world.
It seems that Phil’s lackey is lacking: it’s patently obvious that for all Steve’s huffing and puffing, he is nothing but a bag of air – an arrogant and self-absorbed individual who excels as a grandstanding gum-flapper, but who is devoid of any genuine substance whatsoever. Typical C3 pastor material, really.
This discussion has reinforced my belief that some churches are not safe places to be.
So what church do you attend Annette. It must be really good to get your approval.
Or just tell me the denomination and country.
@Q Or just tell me the denomination and country”.
This one is for ‘q’ to learn from:
I heard a story [unconfirmed] that a person once walked into a hillsong/c3 convention and asked: “How many denominations do you have here?” and someone said: “$10’s, $20’s and $50’s”.
You’re a crack-up, Q. Haven’t laughed so much in ages! Love your work! Don’t feel like you’re a failure because the residents here don’t get your poignant humour. And don’t stop. You’re observations are hilarious! God bless you!
He learned well from his master/mentor/Steve/Gordy/Delancey. Given the opportunity he will, like you, take up all the air in the proverbial chat room. “Now Listen Q, just keep throwing dozens of comments, one after the other until it all gets off topic and they’re fighting with each other”. Sarcasm? Yes but being the moderator has its privileges and insights.
Oh no! That is a furphy. I’ve never had to ‘mentor’ Q. You know you are very wrong with that attempt at association, churchwatcher, because you have been around Q for a few years now on other sites in other guises.
Q is very much his own man, and, as I told Austin when he challenged Q to come on to these sites, he does not suffer fools easily.
Q and I differ on many issues, and I’ve copped a few rebukes from him, too, but I love his lack of guile, his sincerity and the way he uses his poignant sense of humour to highlight hypocrisy. He makes people laugh. That’s a good thing. Better than poe faced religiousity. But he won’t take garbage from anyone, either. That’s what you’re finding out.
And, no, Q doesn’t take the thread off course. He is very good at staying on subject.
I think you mistake sarcasm for pinpoint accuracy in hitting the target with a fine measure of humour to soften the impact.
@delancey “he does not suffer fools easily”.
Slight correction: The “correct Bible quote is: “..suffer fools gladly”.
The Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:19.
Yo Q
“some Squid guy?”
Mate you’ve got some seriously fast thumbs and fingers if you’re doing this on a phone!
Also given your knowledge of historical Pentecostal churches in Brisbane leads me to believe you’re here. In fact, I could probably know you, given your length of time in churches. Or probably more likely, you would know (of) me.
So what do you think about the contemporary church scene in Brisbane? Is it lukewarm, shallow, becoming more “prosperity doctrine” focused? I know in the late 80’s there was the Stewardship program at Northside Christian Family which drove numerous people from there. However after that it was never a high prosperity-teaching church. There was substance, good non-selfish worship, good God-focused youth program. I can’t speak directly for how it is now as re-branded Nexus. Obviously very seeker-focused, though not sure doctrinal wise, good or bad.
Again, because you don’t like generalisations, can’t comment directly on Hillsong Brisbane. It obviously drawers the crowds because it’s hip, funky.
As for the c3 here I attended – it’s got all the glitz and glam, the massive TV screens with a girl riding her bike along the Redcliffe foreshore with birds flying around, complete with song lyrics so you can workshop with that. There’s coffee available. Phil Pringle is view as an apostle. And it’s all about “your best life”. The offering messages I’ve heard come off the pulpit, sorry, stage with fancy lecturn, were often little short of “give us your money”, distorting Scripture or having “revelations”. That’s my 1st hand view. I’ve also been told by another ex-attendee that for some offering messages you’re often told or inferred what to say by senior pastors.
That’s my view of the mega church in Brisbane. Not all are the same, but believe me it runs through c3. I’m just being nice. I could be much more brutal. Said it before – I like some of the pastors there. I like Gordon Moore. But as mentioned, churches are businesses, run like businesses. Donations, sorry, tithes and offerings are sought – mixed with Scriptural pros and cons, promises and threats of the devil destroying what you have if you don’t tithe.
So that’s my firsthand view of the current contemporary, coffee-dispersing church. Great for attracting people but often little in substance. I’m not sure how much I heard about sin and repentance. I heard a lot about money. And your best life. Do they play a role in the Body of Christ? Yes. Do they have faults, preach bad or twister doctrine, are after money? Often. As for mega churches overseas, well you just see by their fruit. It’s hard to ignore when Rob Bell comes out and says that everyone goes to Heaven, that God is our mother. When Furtick is exalting himself above his church as some demi-god. When Driscoll recklessly deals with staff (many testimonies). Well, I’m sure there’s good. Like Hill$. Like c3. The question is – what is it built on? The Rock? Money? Just like CHC, we will see very soon.
@delancey to ‘q’..”Don’t feel like you’re a failure because the residents here don’t get your poignant humour”.
Does ‘q’ need a hug? SERIOUSLY!
Funnily enough, ‘poignant’ also means pungent in taste or smell.
Nobody here is able to take your ramblings seriously in a very juvenile attempt to distract from the Word of God.
What is the ‘Gospel’ delancey and q? Who owns it? Whose Words are in it? God’s Words..that’s who. This discussion is primarily about those [ You, Q, hillsong, c3 etc]who seek to edit, change or ignore His Word because it’s too ‘unpalatable’. That kind of false gospel is ‘the fear of man’..not the fear of God.You WILL be measured by your words.
Perfume is ‘pungent’, in that case, and smelling salts for the faint.
Poignant actually evokes a sense of sadness or regret. Q has noticed a tendency towards a negative view of people, life, the Word, God’s attitude towards us, and it is sad that you haven’t seen the other perspective, which is love, joy, peace, grace, acceptance, welcome, openheartedness.
Or maybe you have seen this but have decided that on this forum your subject has to be viewed in the light of judgment.
You say, “This discussion is primarily about those [ You, Q, hillsong, c3 etc]who seek to edit, change or ignore His Word because it’s too ‘unpalatable’.” This is a complete falsehood. The only people who say that we say we edit, change or ignore God’s Word because it is unpalatable is you and your companions here.
I totally and freely accept that God’s Word gives admonition, warning, rebuke and correction in a strong measure, and not only take note of this in my reading and study, but apply it to my life as a disciple of Christ, and, when I am permitted by God, teach it, peach it or minister it. I am certain Q is the same and have read it in some of his writing over the years.
But the Word also presents grace, hope, love and a message of good news, which is the gospel we are admonished to preach.
If you were to read any piece by, say, as an example, Austin, you will find in it a propensity towards judgement, warning and, what I would consider, accusation about any ministry or person he is focusing on today.
Q caught him out in this and he did not like it. He asked for Austin’s opinion of Billy Graham, since he was calling Rick Warren a crook. Austin bit and revealed his negativity towards Billy Graham. Was Q, then, being used by God as a vessel to point out to Austin that he was tending towards a judgmental attitude towards people rather than grace?
Is it presenting the gospel if we only produce the negative side of the gospel? I agree we should not only focus on the rewards without giving the warnings, but, as an interloper in your world of antithesis towards Hillsong/C3, why do I need to add to the commentary you and your friends overwhelmingly add which tends towards judgment and criticism of the same few ministries day after day.
I watched a recent conversation on a thread unfold where no one came in to give the ‘love’ side of the gospel, and it was a constant stream of negativity in a group huddle towards Hillsong/C3 and connected ministries. It was so tedious and repetitive that I wonder why anyone bothers to cmd here, unless they suffer from amnesia and fid it a great way to nod off if watching lawn bowls or the cricket doesn’t work.
The only threads which have a large thread are those with an alternative view to challenge the mind-numbing sameness of the negative approach, so why would anyone imitate your so-called ‘unpalatable’ side of the gospel when there is a perfectly good opportunity to balance it with the good news?
Here’s a challenge for you. Why not write a whole comment which speaks about the good news that God has brought through Jesus Christ, because a direct translation of ‘gospel’ is ‘good news’ or ‘glad tidings’, which is the solution to bad news that, before Christ’s cross, we were all sinners on the way to a fiery eternity?
So, what is the good news, where does it come from, and who said it?
It’s been pointed out a few times that there’s a variety of denominations commenting here. It’s also been stated that not every one agrees with Austin’s view about Billy Graham.
This site is not about Billy Graham by the way – it’s about C3 and its affiliates, its false teaching, its promotion of false teachers and its ongoing deceitful message of ‘material’ prosperity – it’s a discernment site! The biblical gospel brings with it warnings about false teaching, false prophets, and whether you like it or not Steve, this is going to be the main focus of this site.
Warning people.
Warning people to read their bibles with an open mind, not just the very deceptive open heart. Warning people to test all things, giving the biblical warning you never hear from these same pulpits that are under scrutiny here.
@delancey “Was Q, then, being used by God as a vessel to point out to Austin that he was tending towards a judgmental attitude towards people rather than grace?”.
Short answer? No. Was that in between ‘q’ calling people ‘you know what’ and ‘sleeping with different woman if he could, but doesn’t? HIGHLY unlikely god was using ‘q’ as a vessel.
You do know some of nasty ingredients in perfume don’t you?
So, where do you stand on the ‘message’ version promoted by your superiors and Brian Houston foolishly saying Christianity and Islam serve the same God again?
I understand that about Austin, churchwatcher, but there are many other examples of the same flow of negativity. Q and I were accused of resenting the notion of an ‘unpalatable’ gospel. I don’t think the gospel is unpalatable unless a person rejects it outright. It is the savour of life to those who believe and the savour of death to those who do not.
I consider it the savour of life and have accepted it as my guide to life in Christ. I depend on the Word of God in all rings, and continue to be an ardent student of the Word and Spirit. I find the Word to be the bread of life and the Spirit to be intoxicating.
I expect correction, rebuke and instruction from God through His Word and Spirit. I will take correction rom recognised ministers of God, and they don’t have to be from my own church group as long as I know who they are and where they fellowship, and, of core, they do so in love, not out of malice.
I definitely have trouble with receiving correction from pseudonyms and people who find it so difficult to be set in the Body by God through involvement in a local church, overseen by a presbytery and regularly gathering with a flock of saints.
I don’t reject them as Christians, or have an issue with them, but I do not see that they qualify to warn anyone about anything if they cannot set the example given in the Word, and be settled themselves, since we are admonished to ‘consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another’.
This clearly talking about regular fellowship in a flock overseen by shepherds.
If people ignore this admonition how do they qualify to warn others, especially as we are to ‘obey those who rule over us, and be submissive, for they watch out for our souls, as those who must give account, so that we can let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for us’.
If you are going to warn, then are you equally prepared to be warned by others, and who qualifies to warn you, if I may ask? Will you, too, be wanted by anonymous people and take any notice of them?
The gospel is not, then, in itself, unpalatable. It is the good news.
Out of interest, since you like to ask this question of people, what do you call the gospel? What is the good news?
“I don’t think the gospel is unpalatable unless a person rejects it outright.”
You do reject it outright. You’ve made that clear. You hold to a different gospel: The Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel. Your gospel has been refuted by Christ, His Apostles and those asleep in Christ.
Thanks Churchwatcher, for making me aware of the need to really study God’s Word and test all things.
churchwatcher,
‘You do reject it outright. You’ve made that clear. You hold to a different gospel: The Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel. Your gospel has been refuted by Christ, His Apostles and those asleep in Christ.’
I absolutely refute and reject that as a false claim. I hold to the gospel of the scriptures as revealed in the New Testament.
The word of faith is present in scripture and that is what I hold to.
Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
We are sent forth, indeed, by Christ to preach this word of faith, without which no one can be saved.
This, I have said, is the true word of faith as revealed by the Apostle Paul. It is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and is clearly represented is scripture.
What I have pointed out is that a false word of faith teaching has been promoted by two groups. One is the TV evangelists who peddle their false message of excess to gain funding for their TV programs and the other is the discernment ministries which lump all ministries which say anything about word of faith into one box and claim it is based on hyper-faith and metaphysics. Both are equally wrong and deceptive.
These people have polluted the true faith message and the gospel. I am vocal and consistent critic of these groups, and have written about it often.
But there is a true word of faith message, which is the gospel that we preach, as Paul revealed in Romans 10, cited above.
Now you attempt to foster the false discernment ministry line by aligning me with the erroneous claims of discernment ministries which either deny the importance of true Biblical faith in the life of every believer, or who have diminished the importance of faith with their constant rejection of its place in scripture, who preach the rejection of the gifts of the Spirit for today, of miracles and healing and deliverance for today, of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Church for today, and by promoting their watered down, powerless, graceless, cessationist doctrines as fact, and which you promote on your site.
And I do not speak about a specific ‘prosperity’ gospel, because there is only one gospel and that is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is revealed concisely by Paul.
1 Corinthians 15
1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you–unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures…
The Bible does, however, talk about prosperity, blessing and increase as principles of the kingdom, albeit with suffering, persecution and fiery trials.
There is far more to this I could say, but that will do for a start.
Perhaps you can correct your false assertions for the readers.
thetruth,
‘So, where do you stand on the ‘message’ version promoted by your superiors and Brian Houston foolishly saying Christianity and Islam serve the same God again?’
I agree with you, for different reasons, in that I don’t think Q was specifically being used of God to shine the light on Austin’s continued need to speak negatively about certain people (unless you’re a Calvinist, of course, in which case, in your world, he must have been used of God). It was more obvious than that. I think Q was as surprised as anyone that Austin took the bait so willingly.
But the people I hear from the pulpit use the NKJV or NIV, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about in regards to the ‘Message’, which is a paraphrase and should be identified as such if used at all. I would always use the NKJV, and have rarely referred to the Message, although Eugene Petersen occasionally comes up with a phrase you can use to clarify a point. I treat it in the same way I would treat a commentary. It is useful but has clear limitations.
I think Brian apologised for his clumsy statement about Christianity and Islam serving the same God. In the context of the message, it was inaccurate, and I would disagree strongly with it, although, to be fair to Brian, the message itself was saying we should view all teaching through the prism of the Christ of the New Testament, with which I would concur.
The whole issue has been turned into some kind of ‘proof’ that Brian is now saying that he is promoting something discernment ministries concocted called chrislam, which is highly speculative and potentially mischievous.
Re delacey:
“What I have pointed out is that a false word of faith teaching has been promoted by two groups.”
“The Bible does, however, talk about prosperity, blessing and increase as principles of the kingdom, albeit with suffering, persecution and fiery trials.”
I concur.
If you read through every post of mine on this entire site, you will get a grasp of the concerns, opinions and views I have. I generally like to quote Scripture, as it is the final authority.
Despite my “out of c3” journey, unlearning prosperity doctrine, pursuing a life of true Godliness (not attitude toward money), I still risk being thrown in the heresy basket here.
Re faith – you are correct. “If you confess with you mouth…if you believe in your heart, you will be saved.” Faith for salvation.
Matt 21:22 – “And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.” (ESV).
That is faith in prayer. For what? Whatever. Is whatever a new boat? Healing from sickness? Salvation for a child?
Matt 9:28-29
“…Do you believe that I am able to do this?” “Yes, Lord,” they replied. Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”. In this instance referring to sickness. If you’re asking for a new boat, that’s up to you and God. Unfortunately the 5-door sports hatch I “believed” for never arrived.
In referring to believing our Father to meet our needs (of which I have had specific life-altering experience on the verge of losing everything, completely unlike the 5-door a ports hatch mentioned):
Matt 6:32 “For the idolaters eagerly seek all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.”
Matt 7:7-12 “Ask and it will be given to you….how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!” (Luke inserts Holy Spirit).
Luke 6:38 “”Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure– pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.” (NASB)
In this one refer commentaries: it is NOT so much about RECEIVING, but giving to help those – as Paul discusses with the Corinthian church:
“your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness.” 2 Cor 8:14. (ESV)
So concurring with Delacey – I believe in Biblical asking/receiving, giving/receiving, God providing our needs. But – NOT as a means to get rich, NOT as a way to get your church to get more money from you.
Refer Phil 4:10-19 – I have heard this preached that you have a bank account in Heaven blah blah, that Paul wanted the Philippians account to be credited with money, that they participated in the ministry of “giving and receiving”. As I was taught at c3, this is giving money and you’ll get it. What’s the motive – to get more money, or as Paul said to the Corinthian church, and according to commentators, as Jesus eluded in Luke 6:38 – giving to help God’s people?
Or those stuggling with doctrine after leaving c3 or similar churches (including my own continuous journey), I recommend reading those 2 Corinthians 8 and Philipians 4 passages, to understand what giving is all about. “Generosity” is always encouraged because you’re supposed to get more back! But what about giving and NOT receiving back?
And finally – did the widow with the mite rock up at the temple next week in the latest 16 horsepower chariot with gold trim? Motives. Faith.
I hope that clears up, especially my updated, “faith” of physical substances.
@ Q – “So now Warren is a crook too? What about Billy Graham. Was he a crook?”
Rick Warren was always a crook – just a different kind of crook – he’s so crooked that he wants the rest of the church (outside his sphere of influence) to walk on down to Rome and join the Vatican – that is his real aganda and it is crooked:
http://www.thefarmersdaughterusa.com/2014/02/rick-warrens-diet-scam.html
As for Billy Graham, I met a man who once attended his London, England crusade, and after having gone out the front for salvation, happened to overhear through a side door of the tent Billy Graham ask one of his attendants “how much money did we take in the offering tonight?” Not “how many souls came forward” but “how much money did we get”.
You tell me Q – I think that your ramblings are simply bent on being divisive and trouble making – your attitudes towrds Annette and others are shameful and if this were my blog, neither you nor Steve Rowe (aka Gordy et al) would be allowed to come here at all.
The ‘conversation’ works much better without the both of you and I am now convinced that you are Satanically inspired to do your work here, and no doubt on other blogs where you cause no end of strife for the saints of God.
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”
(1 Timothy 3:12, 13)
Now there’s us – and you, in 2 verses of scripture, side by side. Need I say any more?
“It’s more like he’s pointing out your anomaly of thought using satire.”
At least one person gets it. Lol
The man at the Billy Graham crusade was known to me as Mr Weber, (now deceased) he lived out his later years here in Brisbane with his son and daughter in law. He passed away in 1993, but still died a Christian, despite what he saw and heard that night. He never forgot that until his dying day. Neither have I…
There were no Methodist fetes in my home town – only Presbyterian ones and I do remember attending one of them – so your slur on those good people doesn’t hold water. As usual Q, you are wrong again. And where’s all of your references and testimonies from credible, reliable people for all that you say? Non-existant…
That incident CW was no ‘hearsay’ to me – Mr Weber’s testimony was very real and genuine – just like the many that we’ve heard here most of the time, where people have been forced to withdraw from false ministries both small and large.
Q, you are not Satanically inspired because of who you defend, but because of how you defend them – your disregard for scripture, your ill considered responses to anything godly or serious and your bad manners towards women is more than enough for me: “by their fruits shall you know them”. It should be enough for you, too churchwatcher!
Typically you wrest the scriptures to your own destruction, as you do other people’s comments – and that is typical of your preaching heroes and idols – Pringle and Houston are probably glad of the accolades and extra cash coming from “back row dummies” like you Q, but if they were to see you in public, in action, they would disown you…
When I look at you and Gordy Q, it’s hard to tell just who’s the organ grinder, and who’s the monkey any more – or maybe it’s just a “tag team match” after all?
Well, I’ll send you my $2.00 coin via Paypal and you can play me another tune, while Gordy dances on the end of his chain to the music.. OK?
Sadly, it is only you two..and it wasn’t satire [missed it again].The Truth will set you free.
Not everyone here would agree with Austin about Billy Graham and hearsay about an event in England is simply that “hearsay”. We sure that there are many who can claim to have come to a living and active faith after a Billy Graham Crusade. This moderator knows a few.
There’s been much made of Billy Graham’s appearance on Hour of Power back in 1997 where he appears to be inclusive about salvation, in other words, all roads lead to God. For what it’s worth we are posting it here. But remember his own son Franklin has said he wished his father had not said some things as he ages.
http://www.ukapologetics.net/11/graham.htm
Yo Squid.
First of all, thanks for the long post re Brisbane. And for your other lengthy post. You come across as someone worth talking too.
I don’t live in Brisbane at the moment, but am familiar with many of the churches there – the beginnings of Trevor Chandler’s church, the COC from before Mansfield, etc etc.
Not sure what you meant by me calling someone a “you know what”. Don’t think I called anyone anything that bad. Though I’ve been accused of being Satanic and demonic by people here.
As for the “wanting to sleep with different women”, I was just saying that I am tempted and if I were to accept my orientation as being natural like many do today, I would not say i am monogamous by nature.
But on that, point, I am not saying I’m good at all. You can call me the chief of sinners, and I won’t argue. I’m not a great Christian. I’m not very spiritual. And I don’t consider myself to be qualified to judge every minister in town – unlike some of the wonderful people here.
Again, I am not an outstanding Christian. I don’t know everything. I’m probably in the bottom 5% of Christians when it comes to Godliness.
But – I don’t see a need to retract anything of what I have said here. The people here ARE THE ONES attacking people – left, right and centre. And yes, I do believe Austin is wrong for attacking Billy Graham in the way he did because of something a man heard. As I explained on the other thread, we can all hear a person say something without hearing what was said beforehand, and also not knowing the circumstances or the motives of the person.
That is something people used to teach children. Unfortunately, Austin was wagging school that day?
But, it’s a serious fault to be spreading stories like that in order to make others think less of people. That is what I object to.
And perhaps people here have been so used to being sarcastic towards the ministers they don’t like that they don’t realise it anymore. Which is why it’s strange that they take so much offence at sarcasm. Those who live by the sword….
Once again – and please read this. I am not C3. I am not Hillsong. I don’t know Delancey.
I came to this site because I AM interested in the CHC case. And I share many of your concerns about the state of the church these days.
And no, I don’t believe that God sent me here to do anything. I love the Body of Christ. I hate seeing people tearing it down constantly and spending so much time on attacking other Christians when basically the world hates all of us, and rejoices in seeing us attack each other. I also am dismayed when I see people complain about coffee in church and call churches Hellsong when hundreds of people are being killed by Islamic terrorists.
But, if people are on a website attacking churches and ministers, they should be a little tougher when someone questions them or pulls them up.
I hope you find a good church. Or if not, be able to find good people to fellowship with. God bless you.
@Austin
“Q, you are not Satanically inspired because of who you defend,
but because of how you defend them –
your disregard for scripture, ???
your ill considered responses to anything godly or serious???
and your bad manners towards women???
eh..uh….not sure what you mean ….but, well, sorry Austin.
I’ll try to
1. regard scripture better
2. consider better my responses to your godly and serious comments, and
3. improve my manners towards women.
Thanks for rebuking me. I consider it an honour.
@Squid. I’m now on a computer. But I used an iPhone a lot for many of the comments and don’t do well with the auto-correct. But, yeah, I am pretty fast. I got lots of practice on another website arguing with people who like you also hate mega churches, but unlike you believe gay sex, gay marriage, sex before marriage, and nude worship services are all biblical.
So, I actually have more in common with you! Believe it or not. Cheers!