Yahoo! Singapore reports,
AGC warns City Harvest pastor over contemptuous tweets
The Attorney-General’s Chambers (AGC) has issued warnings to a City Harvest Church pastor for two tweets that were deemed to be contemptuous of Singapore’s courts.
Pastor Tan Kim Hock, listed as a founding member and travelling mission pastor of the mega-church, posted a tweet to his account, @kimhock, on 5 May, the day Singapore’s State Courts overturned an application to acquit the six accused in the City Harvest Church funds misappropriation case.
“Wow, I’m amazed at the efficiency of ST. They knew it while the court is still going on or do they know earlier…” wrote Tan, while linking to the article breaking the news on The Straits Times’s website.
Responding to this, the AGC said Tan’s tweet implies that the Courts had given the national broadsheet preferential access to information about the outcome of the application to acquit the six accused, even before the decision by Presiding Judge See Kee Oon.
“The tweet thus further insinuates that the State Courts is biased and/or unfair, given that such treatment was not equally accorded to everyone else,” added a spokesperson for the AGC.
In reality, however, the story was published five minutes after Presiding Judge See ruled that the six accused had a case to answer, hence rendering the insinuations in Tan’s tweet “baseless and untrue”, said the AGC.
In another tweet the next day, Tan quoted a verse from the Bible, which reads, “I also noticed that under the sun there is evil in the courtroom. Yes, even the courts of law are corrupt!”
“Mr Tan has put forward no basis whatsoever for the insinuations in in the Ecclesiastes tweet that the ‘courts of law’ in Singapore are ‘corrupt’, or that the Court hearing the City Harvest Trial is corrupt,” said the AGC in response.
A screenshot of the tweet Tan posted on 9 May after removing his tweet quoting the book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible. (Screengrab from Twitter)
On 9 May, Tan removed the tweet quoting the Bible verse, and tweeted, “On hindsight, I realise that the tweet may be possibly misinterpreted and I have since removed it.” His tweet linking to the Straits Times article, however, remained on his feed until after he received the AGC’s warnings on Tuesday.
Meanwhile, the AGC has also sought an apology from Tan for the posting of both tweets within a week from Tuesday, noting that action may be taken against him if he fails to do so.
By about 6:20pm, Tan changed his Twitter privacy settings to “protected”.
City Harvest founder Kong Hee, as well as four other leaders and a former church member, are on trial for channelling some $24 million in church building funds toward the advancement of Kong’s wife Ho Yeow Sun’s singing career, as well as the shifting of another $26.6 million to cover the first amount.
Last month, the State Courts threw out an application made by lawyers for the accused to acquit them of all their charges, ruling that the evidence provided by the prosecution shows that they do have a case to answer. All six have since indicated their willingness to take the stand to testify in their defence accordingly.
Edit: By Jeanette Tan, AGC warns City Harvest pastor over contemptuous tweets, Yahoo Newsroom, https://sg.news.yahoo.com/agc-warns-city-harvest-pastor-over-contemptuous-tweets-104508748.html, Published Tuesday 03/06/2014. (Accessed 05/06/2014.)
The TR Emeritus reports,
AGC: CHC Pastor’s tweets scandalise the judiciary
A reader has forwarded the following tweet from the twitter account @kimhock to TRE:
It shows that on 5 May 2014, he twitted the following message:
Wow, I’m amazed at the efficency of ST. They knew it while the court is still going on or do they know earlier …www.straitstimes.com/news/singapore/courts-crime/story/judge-throws-out-application-acquit-city-harvest-church-leaders-20
The ST (i.e. Straits Times) article Kim Hock was referring to was an online news report about Presiding Judge See Kee Oon throwing out a court application to acquit City Harvest Church (CHC) leaders. Judge See said there is enough evidence for the trial to continue with all of the charges intact.
“In my view there is evidence to show that the investments were shams… and were merely disguises for something else,” the judge said.
ST reported the news on their website at 3:15pm on 5 May 2014. The court session was held earlier that day. In his tweet, Kim Hock is implying that ST appeared to know the judgment before the court session ended or even earlier.
The next day (6 May), Kim Hock twitted again. This time, he quoted a verse from the New Living Translation version of the Bible and broadcast it through Twitter:
Ecclesiastes 3:16 – “I also noticed that under the sun there is evil in the courtroom. Yes, even the courts of law are corrupt!”
Taking the 2 tweets on 5 and 6 May together, it appears that Kim Hock is not too happy with the judgment of the court. It is not known what he is trying to imply by quoting the Bible verse.
According to the CHC website [Link], Tan Kim Hock is a pastor of CHC as well as the Academic Dean of City Harvest School Of Theology:
And according to the Twitter page of City Harvest School Of Theology @chcsot, it regularly re-tweets messages from its pastors like @kimhock and even @konghee:
In other words, @kimhock is the twitter account of CHC pastor Tan Kim Hock.
It is interesting to note that Pastor Tan Kim Hock quoted the Bible verse Ecclesiastes 3:16 from the New Living Translation Bible:
Ecclesiastes 3:16 – “I also noticed that under the sun there is evil in the courtroom. Yes, even the courts of law are corrupt!”
In the more popular modern translations of the Bible e.g. the New International Version (NIV) Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_International_Version), the verse is translated as:
Ecclesiastes 3:16 – “And I saw something else under the sun: In the place of judgment — wickedness was there, in the place of justice — wickedness was there.”
The Book of Ecclesiastes is actually 1 of 24 books of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. It is among the canonical “Books of Wisdom” in the Old Testament for most denominations of Christianity. According to rabbinic tradition, Ecclesiastes was written by King Solomon in his old age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastes).
John Wesley, co-founder of the Methodist Church in the 1700′s explained Ecclesiastes 3:16 [Link]:
This is another argument of the vanity of worldly things, and an hindrance of that comfort which men expect in this life, because they are oppressed by their rulers. Judgment – in the thrones of princes, and tribunals of magistrates.
Solomon is still showing that everything in this world without the fear of God is vanity. In these verses he shows, that power, of which men are so ambitious, and life itself, are worth nothing without it.
Was Pastor Tan Kim Hock really trying to say that “everything in this world without the fear of God is vanity” or was he trying to imply something else by quoting the verse from the New Living Translation Bible?
What do you think?
Source: Editorial, AGC: CHC Pastor’s tweets scandalise the judiciary, TR Emeritus, http://www.tremeritus.com/2014/06/04/agc-chc-pastors-tweets-scandalise-the-judiciary/, Published 04/06/2014. (Accessed 06/06/2014.)
All I can say about this is that Tan Kim Hock has certainly upset the Singapore Government with his inappropriate tweets it just goes to show this guy has lost the plot , they are not very smart people there at CHC.
Don’t you wonder if the Singapore Government will be chastising other CHC pastors and even Pringle’s slanderous claims against them?
Yes, people should be careful of upsetting the Singapore govt.
The other problem for CHC is that Singaporeans aren’t used to long trials. So a long trial without any conviction will be seen as incompetency and a waste of taxpayers money by many people. (Plenty of that sentiment already).
“So a long trial without any conviction will be seen as incompetency and a waste of taxpayers money by many people”
Taxpayer’s money? I hope you take into consideration all the money fleeced from Christians by the “hirelings” that continue to invite Kong Hee to speak in their churches so he can raise more funds to pay for his legal fees.
And of course he initially had to have a QC ($$$$$$$), now has a lawyer ($$$) same level playing field as the others charged – though with Chew Eng Han representing himself (-$) there will be some interesting questions asked by this “insider”.
An “insider” obviously not prepared to fall on his sword as was suggested early on by Kong Hee supporters. Yes, no wonder the Singaporeans are scandalized over the length of the trial.
But remember something Q, a longer trial also means a fair trial and there’s no doubt of that with a Singaporean court system well-known for its fairness and efficiency in administration.
I was talking from the viewpoint of non-Christian Singaporeans based on what I’ve read.
“a Singaporean court system well-known for its fairness and efficiency in administration.”
eh, how many Singaporeans do you know? That’s a surprising comment. Not sure where you got that idea. I’ve known many Singaporeans for decades and of course been there. I’ve yet to find many people to sing the praises of the Singapore justice system.
Interesting – what is your source of admiration? Have you lived in Singapore?
Q- From your previous comments , we know you hold to a very high and strict standard of proof requirement from others and for yourself. I am sure you don’t mind to show us proof that it is truly the viewpoint of the non Christian Singaporeans. I am sure you did not make your statement based on 2nd or 3rd hand reports or someone’s casual assumption. As you set a very high standard of research for yourself and others I am quite confident your statement is based on information not lesser than from primary sources. Will you share with us then the ORIGINAL report of the survey done( if any at all). Knowing the very high standard of proof you hold dearly to, I know you won’t disappoint us and we are confident your statement is surely not merely quoting someone who in turn could possibly be just quoting someone else’s report or blog. As you always insist, reporting reports is not proof, and proof comes only from primary or original sources.
Okay, here we go – it will take a while to get through answering all these attacks and barbs. lol
First Mr Setfree, I don’t really have very high and strict standards of proof. I stated that ONE journalist quoting ONE elder about Cho’s retirement package wasn’t enough for me to confidently pass on that information. I stated that I wasn’t saying I didn’t think it was true. I just ask if there was anything else supporting that figure. You really have a bee in your bonnet. Calm down lol
And I didn’t talk about primary sources. I simply asked if anyone had anything more than a comment somewhere about Cho’s retirement figure and also the 100k preaching figure.
You have completely missed the point again. I am not defending Pringle. I am not C3, and never was. Neither have I had anything to do with CHC.
As for evidence of what I said about the Singapore justice system – it’s purely my opinion. And rather, I never made a big statement about it. I questioned those said it had such a glowing reputation. All I’m going on is conversations with people who migrated from Singapore, things that I have read over the years, and current comments. And perhaps things are much different now.
But because Singapore has always been quite a deal more autocratic (you forget Lee Kuan Yew?), I am simply saying that indeed i don’t think it was wise for a Pastor to upset the govt in any way.
But like I said, It’s just a general observation. And if you disagree that’s fine. But perhaps if i had said that 73% of current Singaporeans have no faith in the justice system, I wouldn’t be surprised if you asked me where i got the statistic from.
Do you understand? Or is it still difficult. iow, I think you wasted a lot of time with your attempt as sarcasm.
But, keep working on it. Maybe you’ll get better…! lol
Q – So sorry you had to write a long explanation. But you don’t really need to. We understand. Peace🙂
Long trials are not something Singaporeans are not familiar with. They depend on the nature of the case and this trial will be long as it involves many people. Singapore is not a backward country without systems that they desire to sent people to the gallows as quickly as possible. There is due process of law. But what Singaporeans have not ever ever encountered or used to, is the scandal of a pastor’s wife in a half naked ‘evangelistic dance’ and church funds being used to finance it .
I probably know a bit more about Singapore than you my friend. I’m not saying they are a backward country. I’m comparing length of trials with the US/Australia scene.
Q- you who shout proof proof proof from everyone can conclude without basis you know more about Singapore than me. Wah Lau!!!!
Q – I guess you realise there’s a lot of traffic and commenters from Singapore visiting this site regularly? 276 visits just in the 24 hours, so if there are opinions and info about the legal system from Singapore, there’s a reasonably reliable source. By the way there are some amazing churches in Singapore, filled with people with great concerns for the CHC congregation and the eventual outcome of the trial. When viewed through the secular Singaporean eye this scandal affects the body of Christ over there, not just CHC.
@Churchwatcher. I know there are lots of great churches there, and I think there are lots of great Christians in CHC. I think the whole thing is so sad.
I think I’ve already said that I am not a supporter of China Wine, or millions spent on a crossover project, or the concept of a church supporting a crossover project anyway.
From all my reading on the case (which isn’t extensive), I think Kong Hee is guilty of misleading his congregation, I think way too much money was spent on Sun Ho, and I feel sorry for the workers who may lose not only their freedom but their chance of gainful employment in the future.
But I don’t know for sure.
I simply asked for more sources of some specific claims made here.
(and In the end, I take no joy at all in Christians getting in trouble publicly. I also don’t think mistakes or sins made mean the end of a person or ministry)..
Perhaps some people here are really over sensitive?
Again, I am neither Hillsong, C3, or any similar church, and I don’t believe in tithing or protracted offering appeals. Not even that much into church buildings for that matter.
i’m bewildered at the touchiness of some people here, and also at how spiritual and noble some people seem to think they are.
Hey Q,
That’s an *awful* lot of egg on your face there.
It’s obvious that you’ve been the beneficiary of a great deal in the way of higher education, however you would do well to remember that the definition of an intellectual is someone who has been educated beyond their intelligence.
“It’s obvious that you’ve been the beneficiary of a great deal in the way of higher education…”
I wouldn’t dwell on that part. I’ve complete a lot of “higher education”, including post-grad and maybe even more that “Q”, and I can confirm that the people you meet there aren’t necessarily the most intelligent. There are a lot of people at universities who really shouldn’t be there…
Once again, I make no boast about education. And the smartest people I know didn’t graduate from college.
This all started with people going berserk when I asked for some homework…..all hell broke lose and I had to get out my shield of faith with all the fiery darts coming my way. lol And when people insisted that hearing one guy somewhere say something was all the evidence needed from a research assistant…I made a comment.
And haven’t heard the end of it. Take it easy fellows. Or is it really stressful being a soldier of Christ on a discernment website?
@’q: “Once again, I make no boast about education”.
Dear oh dear ‘q’..can you ‘recall’ this:
“Maybe you don’t know much about research? Have you done much work in higher education?”
And this:” Of maybe I’ve spent more time in higher education?”
And this: “studied theology.Have you?”
Or this:”Have you done much study of anything in your life?”
As for your ‘shield of faith’, let’s have a quick look at some of your faith ‘thoughts’..
“And no, I don’t believe that God sent me here to do anything”.
And this: “Again, I am not an outstanding Christian”.
And this: “You can call me the chief of sinners, and I won’t argue. I’m not a great Christian. I’m not very spiritual”.
And this: ” I’ve not really moved by Sydney-siders tales of woe”.
And this: “Thanks for rebuking me. I consider it an honour”.
And this:”then you are a complete pussy and need to harden up”.
And this: “keep your criticisms off their belief in tithes, women pastors and the Message, and more people will listen to you”.
And my personal favourite:”I wouldn’t advise Billy Graham to come here either. Nor the Apostle Paul”.
I don’t think they will be calling on you anytime soon ‘q’.
As for the many names and insults you have addressed to people, it is nothing except hot air and evil thinking.
Are your words ‘pure’ Q?
You are fine with unbiblical principles of women pastors,tithes and heretical versions of the Holy Bible?
Do you even identify as a Christian? In my opinion, HIGHLY UNLIKELY.
Do you think you can rant, rave and insult..and then think God somehow blesses your behaviour?
Do you somehow ‘think’ you are doing the Lord’s Work?
Where, in the Bible, does God bless those who think and speak evil?
You need to get down on your knees and pray for God to open your eyes and ears, and put away your evil speaking and thoughts.
“Every word of God is pure:
He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him.
Add thou not unto His words,
lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
(Proverbs 30:5-6)
Hey Q,
“If [Set Free] know[s] more about Singapore than I do, that’s fine. No problem.
I didn’t say for sure that I did. I said probably”
Actually, what you said was:
“I probably know a bit more about Singapore than you my friend.”
….employing a turn of phrase that comes across as nothing if not supercilious.
Anyway, just to set the record straight Q: there are any number of people reading and contributing here who intelligent, articulate, widely-read, well-experienced, and, above all, Biblically au fait – that is to say, they are the antithesis of C3 pastors in general, and of Phil Pringle in particular.
These individuals are well able to take in the abundance of evidence that is readily available, and to reach conclusions that, in truth, are self-evident to those of even modest understanding – assuming such have eyes to see. Phil Pringle’s alleged mentor Yonggi Cho has received a suspended prison sentence for colluding with his son to defraud his “church”, and Cho’s son has been gaoled over the matter. Pringle’s protege Kong – a known plagiarist and now also a self-confessed liar – is on trial in Singapore, and it doesn’t look good for him right now. Nick Dimitris of C3 Asheville in the U.S. has been gaoled for a year for real-estate fraud (and was very fortunate to escape with such a light sentence). Here in Australia, C3 have, in recent times, reached settlements out of court to avoid what they obviously fear the most – having their dirty laundry aired in public.
This web site has enumerated heresies and scandals aplenty, but while it has revealed enough smoking guns to stock an entire armoury, you apparently won’t believe anything until you can see the slow-motion footage of each and every round in flight. Wake up and smell the roses, Q! If a man preaches false doctrine, then his conduct will be crooked – it cannot be any other way. Either a man is filled with and moved by the Holy Spirit, or he is impelled by his fallen flesh down unrighteous paths by the light of his own torch. It was a long, long time ago that Phil Pringle came to a fork in the road where there were a pair of signposts: one said “To God”, and the other, “To Mammon”. Phil chose the wrong path, and much that has happened since – and that is happening now – is a consequence of the path he has taken.
Great – now we’ve got all that settled and out of the system/s how about the topic at hand? “AGC notices CHC pastoral propaganda”
Anyone surprised to see how quickly the Singaporean government acted on this?
Hey Q,
“Once again, I simply asked for a verification of the 100k figure given for each of over 30 visits.”
Putting such questions is fair enough; that figure was something about which I had heard myself, but I wasn’t sure of its veracity. My understanding is that care is taken on this site vis-a-vis accurate reporting; bear in mind that CW doubtless has to be mindful how some information is handled in order to protect the identity of sources (perhaps even to the extent of withholding some pertinent facts).
I imagine that you would be willing to concede that recent experience proves how small groups of people handling large sums of money in opaque environments with little accountability is a recipe for trouble. If it’s the case that some here are credulous to what seems to be the point of naivety, it might be helpful to reflect on the huge amount of money that Kong Hee and friends siphoned off at CHC, and for just how long they managed to escape detection. It’s clear that when the conditions are right and those at the helm give in to temptation, probity quickly goes out the window and breathtaking sums are misappropriated – one way or another.
That amount of $100k (or S$100k) has also been mentioned quite a few times by CHC (or exCHC) members on their own CHC Confessions wall. Verification would definitely be appreciated by those visiting this site from Singapore. Even if it was only a $10,000 ‘fee’ it would still seem an exorbitant amount.
When Phil Pringle is over there, his son often flies in from LA. Why? Is there a need for a family member (part of a secular LA band) to lead worship when there’s obviously talented singers in their own congregation. They have other CHC pastors as well. Are none of those senior pastors qualified to preach, to take the services when Kong Hee is off gaining legal funds speaking at other churches around the globe? Says a lot about the ‘qualifications’ of senior leadership if Phil Pringle has to fly in approximately once a month.
Seriously who is paying for these engagements, these airfares , their accommodation etc? Self-funded by Phil and Joe Pringle? Or does the church i.e. the congregation, foot the bill? In light of the enormous sums of money transferred in Sun’s singing career and its consequences, you could reasonably think they would tighten the existing purse strings.
Obvious questions don’t you think?
A love offering or honorarium is a different matter, this is how the majority of visiting preachers are recompensed for their preaching the good news, it’s the ‘few’ that are demanding and receiving exorbitant fees. T.D. Jakes a good example of demanding $100,000.00 fee. This story lines up with the events surrounding his visit to Australia to speak for C3 about 9 years ago.
http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2014/02/ron-luces-former-assistant-says.html
“I imagine that you would be willing to concede that recent experience proves how small groups of people handling large sums of money in opaque environments with little accountability is a recipe for trouble”
Yes I would tend to agree with that. As for the particular sums of money, if all are in agreement with the amounts in a way it’s not concern or business of mine. Although as a person involved in missions, I often am amazed at how much money is spent that I think could be used better. But, a struggling Pastor in the back of China would say the same about any of you.
Personally, I can’t see myself accepting 100K. But that’s me. On the internet you always have to be careful of copying and pasting. The 100k figure is on this website too – but that’s just been copied from CHC confessions or somewhere. No what I mean? I read where Jews were absent on 9/11 and that was repeated – but not from different sources, just people pasting the same source. That’s all.
So I think we need to be careful.
@Icarus. I totally agree with you. Definitely. I wasn’t saying anyone is smarter for having higher education.
I was simply making the point that someone thinking that quoting a journalist quoting an elder was reasonable enough to have confidence in probably hasn’t done much research.
But, I agree with you Icarus.
@Setfree. If you know more about Singapore than I do, that’s fine. No problem.
I didn’t say for sure that I did. I said probably. And compared with a random group of Australians, i’d say I’d know a bit more about Asia in general. (Having travelled and lived here for decades).
that’s all. No big dramas. And I may be wrong about what I think about Singapore.
Wow. There are some uptight people here! lol
Q- okay, whatever you say, my friend🙂
“@’q: “Once again, I make no boast about education”.
Dear oh dear ‘q’..can you ‘recall’ this:
Okay I will try to “recall”. You love “” don’t you?
“Maybe you don’t know much about research? Have you done much work in higher education?”
That’s not a boast, it’s a question. And I said “maybe”.
“And this:” Of maybe I’ve spent more time in higher education?”
I said maybe. I’m not even saying that’s a good thing. Just saying that that copying and pasting someones comment on the internet isn’t considered research.
“And this: “studied theology.Have you?”
I have studied theology. I only said it because people kept insinuating I didn’t know anything. But I apologise. I don’t think studying theology is any great thing. And I can hardly “recall” saying it anyway. I didn’t think you would get so upset. Especially, when people here keep carrying on about fake degrees, and how some megachurch pastors haven’t had “theological” training.
“Or this:”Have you done much study of anything in your life?”
I said that in response to people continually arguing that a comment from one person posted on the internet could be deemed proof. I was attacked for not researching.
Just defending myself -as I am now from this SUPER LONG attack. lol But i’m flattered.
“As for your ‘shield of faith’, let’s have a quick look at some of your faith ‘thoughts’..”
“Yes” Let’s “have” a “look” and “see” what we can “see”. “””””””””””””””””””””” lol
““And no, I don’t believe that God sent me here to do anything”.
And this: “Again, I am not an outstanding Christian”.
And this: “You can call me the chief of sinners, and I won’t argue. I’m not a great Christian. I’m not very spiritual”.”
The above is all true. I have never said I was better than anyone or more spiritual. People here seem to claim a lot, and deem themselves worthy of rebuking just about every famous Christian in the world. I don’t think that “highly” of “myself”.
And this: ” I’ve not really moved by Sydney-siders tales of woe”.
Not their tales of persecution and spiritual hardship. No. I stand by that. I’ve met people who know what real persecution is.
And this: “Thanks for rebuking me. I consider it an honour”.
Well it must be an honour, because you are all such great people. If I were rebuked by some person who wasn’t very spiritual, then it wouldn’t be such an “honour”.
Just love those “” marks, don’t you! lol
And this:”then you are a complete pussy and need to harden up”.
Yeah, you guys need to harden up. You dish it out continually, but spit the dummy when questioned. (pussy means weak person – easily scared)
“And this: “keep your criticisms off their belief in tithes, women pastors and the Message, and more people will listen to you”.”
Yes, I stand by that. By criticising some obviously wrong things you have credibility. But if you criticise Pringle, Hillsong, Kong AND Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, anyone who sincerely teaches tithing, Billy Graham, and women preachers and even churches with good coffee…..you run the risk of people thinking you hate EVERYONE!
It was advice.
“And my personal favourite:”I wouldn’t advise Billy Graham to come here either. Nor the Apostle Paul”.
I don’t think they will be calling on you anytime soon ‘q’.”
You like that one that much? I’m pleased. Oh, and what a sarcastic put down from you. For the record. Paul is dead. He won’t call on me. Second, Billy Graham is very ill, but even if he were healthy, I know he wouldn’t call me. I am a nobody in the Kingdom of God. Billy Graham is extremely well respected and admirer. I also admire him very much. And am disturbed when people also try to trash him by quoting something someone heard from possibly decades ago, and didn’t know the context.
But, it seems you can trashtallk ANY minister on this website. But you can’t defend them. That would be…troublemaking or causing division. Okay, got it.
“As for the many names and insults you have addressed to people, it is nothing except hot air and evil thinking.”
lol would you like a list of the things I have been called here???
“Are your words ‘pure’ Q?”
Not always. Are yours?
“You are fine with unbiblical principles of women pastors,tithes and heretical versions of the Holy Bible?”
I don’t think tithing is compulsory for Christians. I don’t teach it. I don’t think Christians are cursed if they don’t tithe. On the other hand, many great Christians who love the Word of God have taught tithing. I respect them, but disagree. I read the King James Version mostly (not with the apocrypha like the original). I hate heresy, so I wouldn’t knowingly use a heretical version exclusively, but to tell the truth, I don’t really know if there is a version of the Bible where every verse is heretical. i’ve never had a woman Pastor. I am a traditionalist when it comes to women pastors. But I like listening to Joyce Meyers sometimes. (yes, I know, Austin and many others have a lot of dirt on her too). But, I’ve been encouraged by her testimony. Shoot me.!
(that’s a “joke”) and the period before the exclamation mark was a typing error, just in case the typing nazis are ready to pounce….
If I trashed everyone who disagreed with me about a doctrine or Christian practice, I’d have to start a website and discern everyone, and i’ve have no friends…
“Do you even identify as a Christian? In my opinion, HIGHLY UNLIKELY.”
Yes I do. Even though yes, it may seem “HIGHLY UNLIKELY” roftl
“Do you think you can rant, rave and insult..and then think God somehow blesses your behaviour?”
I have been on the receiving end of some of the finest ranting, raving, and insulting here. Though the people who usually rant at me are those who support gay marriage, and hate the bible. I’m mystified to be insulted and raved at here. NO sure if God blesses all of my behaviour. But I think He is okay with me defending Billy Graham against slander.
“Do you somehow ‘think’ you are doing the Lord’s Work?”
I was asking questions. And originally commented here because someone “dared” someone to defend Houston. And I did that, because most of what he said seemed okay to me.
“Where, in the Bible, does God bless those who think and speak evil?”
It doesn’t say it I don’t think. But I don’t know the Bible as “well” as “YOU”. lol
“You need to get down on your knees and pray for God to open your eyes and ears, and put away your evil speaking and thoughts.”
Really? Okay. May I ask one thing? Have you ever thought anything evil? Have you or your other comrades ever said anything evil on this website? If not. Congratulations! If you have, then please join with me in prayer right now. Come, will you come. lol
“Every word of God is pure:
He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him.
Add thou not unto His words,
lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
(Proverbs 30:5-6)
At last you said something that made sense! Brilliant. Yes, I think this is a great verse. I love this. And I love Proverbs. It’s great isn’t it. David Wilkeson used to get new converts to first read John and the Proverbs. He said they needed New Testament truths, but they also need practical wisdom for living right. Yep, Proverbs is great.
Come to think of it, I once heard a woman preacher say she liked Proverbs and she shared how it helped her.
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH sorry….. Look I mentioned “WOMEN PREACHERS” but I think I got away with it. Don’t mention “women preachers”.
Sorry.
Hey thanks again for your wonderful “rebuke”, and I am really sincerely flattered that I mean so much to you that you went to all the trouble to quote me. Just when I was feeling “down”, you “raised me up”. Man, I feel almost as encouraged as when I do when I listen to a Houston podcast.
aaahahhahahahah sorry.!!!! I didn’t mean that. No, I NEVER listen to Houston!. He’s baaaaaaaad. A very naughty preacher if “ever” saw one. A man i know saw him once….look I’m kind of reticent to say this…but….he was drinking a “cafe latte” in Gloria Jeans!! thinking he was so “cool”. Ichabod.
lol
Bless you man. You are funny!
so” “many” “typos”……!!!!! lol
Not uptight Q – just reacting to your style of commenting.
churchwatcher- :))
At last setfree smiled. He is free indeed!🙂
@Churchwatcher. You are pretty decent and reasonable. One of the mature ones here along with Berean. Some of your deputies are a little trigger happy though.
Sorry, if I made you react. I’ll try to do better. Basically, most of my comments have been answers to rants, raves, insults, rebukes, putdowns, accusations and the odd innocent questions. But, it’s been fun.
I will say there is something ironic here. If Pringle tried do talk about unity and stopping discounting voices it would be said to be proof that he’s dictatorial and cultic and afraid of dialogue.
But on a website?? You need unity? And to watch out for people who ask questions?
That’s kind of ironic? Funny.
So, SETFREE! and Truthy Woothy, are they like elders or bodyguards or something? lol
Questions are verboten.
PS. Here’s a challenge. You guys here start a church. I prophesy (pooh I’ll get creamed for that!!! lol – but it’s just a “figure” of “speech”) than within a few months you’ll all be attacking each other. It’s a lot easier to have unity when you just attack a common enemy. Some here don’t go to church. Very understandable.
Try doing church, and see how you all get on!
Make my day.
There is too much arguing and squabbling amongst bloggers going on here its boring!!
, otherwise people will flee from this site, stick to the issues which are church corruption!! and corrupt church leaders !! who need to be exposed.
Exactly Sharkey – sometimes we think it’s a deliberate attempt to sabotage the site, and as was said over at HillsongChurchWatch:
“Let’s all try to stay on topic, which we would agree is sometimes hard to do, given the nature of the culture that’s developed here. Childish, rude, personal attack and ‘conspiracy theory’ comments will be deleted. Check your comments for appropriateness before posting. The majority of people commenting here claim to be Christians – let your comments reflect that.”
Stay on topic, be reasonable or be deleted.
apologies guys, i’ll stay on topic.
Hard to imagine what effect, if any, the tweets had on the congregation in general. It must be completely frustrating for them to hear one thing from the pastor, and then more revelations of financial wrongdoing being exposed in the media.
MR CHURCHWATCHER,
At anytime please feel free to delete any of my comments. It’s your site, and you have every right to delete. I have no problems with that. I also don’t mind if you ban me. I could put it on my resume.
But if you like you could have THETRUTH or SETFREE or AUSTIN write a post about how evil and unChristian I am and I can just respond to their attacks, insults, sarcastic putdowns and rebukes on one page, and I can take them all on. That would be fun.
They seem to be obsessed with me, and they can attack and then pat each other on the back and have a “jolly good time”.
We could even make Mr THETRUTH “really happy” by “majoring” in “lots” of “interesting” “punctuation”, and if anyone “forgot” to use “lots” of “””” he could “order” them to “kneel” down and “repent”.
I’d love to see thetruth preach. Does he do the Dr Evil quotation mark thing with his hands too?
Oh, and Truthie. I call myself Q because it’s just shorter and easier to type. So you defeat the purpose by always calling me”q”. Unless you “really” “really” “love” quotation marks???
Q – its a bit like parenting, moderating a blog. There is a ‘naughty corner’ and a ‘time-out’ chair.
Churchwatcher, just put me in a ‘time-out” chair in the “naughty corner’. And put a gag over my mouth while the trinity (thetruth, setfree and Austin) rebuke me and tell me to repent. And evangelise me because they don’t think I’m a Christian.
“But if you like you could have THETRUTH or SETFREE or AUSTIN write a post about how evil and unchristian I am …. ect, rant, rant…” Well Q they don’t have to. You said in your own words that you are not that spiritual and you are in the 5% lowest range of the worst sinners. So why are you posting on a discernment website then. It doesn’t make sense.
“You said in your own words that you are not that spiritual and you are in the 5% lowest range of the worst sinners. So why are you posting on a discernment website then. It doesn’t make sense.”
Sorry, I didn’t know you had to be REALLY spiritual to make any kind of comment on a discernment website. And with all due respect and with no offence intended, I didn’t really notice that you all hear were spiritual giants. Some don’t even go to church, and others think nothing of gossiping. I thought I’d fit in! lol
As for being a bad sinner, yes I think so. I’m the guy beating his breast that Jesus talked about. I’m amazed at how wonderfully spiritual and noble everyone on this site thinks they are. Pringle -yep better than him. Billy Graham? ha -he’s a crook. I know better than him.
Who knows, some of you probably think you aren’t happy in the churches you are in now because they aren’t up to scratch. Are you guys like the SAS of the christian world?
But, if you are so noble, and Godly and spiritual, then maybe this is a good place for me to see such great examples of Christian lives. I was hoping to learn something.
Does that “make sense” Annette?
hmmmm People love to use my words against me to put me down. It should hurt, but maybe I’m too tough, because it just makes me flattered that my words are cherished so much here. I can feel the love. You’ve taken me into your hearts and I’m so glad to be a part of this great “family”.
I should put that to music!
Does that “make sense” Annette? NO Q – you do not make sense at all. Just a load of waffle, and ignorant accusations.
Annette – time to move on from attacking Q. The topic is “AGC notices CHC pastoral propaganda”.
Sorry Churchwatcher. I was merely reminding him of his own words and answering his question. I will be more careful. Naughty corner for me.
Yes, let’s expose them!
Okay, I think I understand the rules here. You must only post things that are critical of C3, Hillsong, CHC and Yonngi Cho. And you can’t question anyone if they seem too critical, and you can’t ask for verification of allegations. And you must not make typing errors. Okay, now I know the rules, I’ll do fine here!
Got it.
:)))))))
Yes Q critical of C3,CHC, Hillsong and Yonngi Cho for very good reasons !!
Well, CW – now that that’s all been sorted out, I might feel like posting in again, if I may…
I don’t specifically remember chiding anyone over their typos or grammer, and in relation to Billy Graham, I apologise if that particular comment caused you or anyone else on the blog any problems.
It’s just that you did state earlier last week that “fair questions demand fair answers” or words to that effect. I have not changed my opinion as such, but will try to follow the lead of each thread as best I can, without accidentally, or on purpose “feeding the trolls”.
It can be difficult at times, to comment fairly on each thread, as you and others have obviously done a lot of reasearch, but some of us can only go on the initial post, and whatever we can Google.
So sometimes, a poster may not have the full story, and commenting on only part of the story can be a bit difficult, and any such comments may cause more than a few misunderstandings.
Thanks Austin – please keep posting. It’s also an ongoing issue when Gordy/Steve/Delancey comments here, it pretty quickly degenerates into side issues. You have noticed he really never answers direct questions? He would rather take the opportunity to use the site as a platform to preach his own message claiming orthodoxy as he does – then a little bit of WOF leaven sneaks in.
Why is he allowed to comment here at all?
Because sometimes we need to see the mindset we do battle with, be reminded that real people attend these churches C3 & Hillsong, and “fully endorse the product”. That real people commenting here were once of that same mindset so grace sometimes needs to be extended in the hope that some may truly see what’s going on behind the scenes, ‘the smoke & mirrors’.
Maybe we comment here to demonstrate the reaction we face if we ask questions or suggest that you may have to adjust your claims, as with C3 Marion.
You have removed sound doctrine by Gordy at hillsongchurchwatch simply so that you don’t have to admit your attack on his doctrine was wrong, even though Gordy had the support of teaching by McArthur, Spurgeon, JFB, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Gill, and host of others in defence. You removed an entire teaching by McArthur.
Then you leave up your own false claims.
People do see it you know, before you take it down.
Hi Gordy/Steve/Delancey, in discussion with other moderators, your comments and ‘churchwatcher’ comments are saved for a later article but sadly “so much heresy, so little time” puts it on the backburner for now. Having said that, your claims of ‘sound’ doctrine are simply opinion and that’s ok – we agree to disagree. Your responses from now on are going to allowed only if they address the individual articles. This moderator has been told you don’t address direct questions and use obfuscation instead.
The second quote you removed was entirely a John McArthur teaching!
The comment was saved, all comments pertaining to the topic were saved – final warning.
Dear Delancey,
C3 Marion – in defence of Church Watcher there’s no commentary (or “claims”) just reporting on facts. All of this is in public view and verifiable. The sexual abuse case is well known in Adelaide – check the SA Courts to verify for yourself and the numerous media reports. What has been said about property sales etc has been publically announced from the “pulpit” of C3 itself or explained in detail to the leaders there.
C3 Marion is a mess and this will be an interesting case study.
The last few months there have been defections of two lots of assistant pastors.
Clearly the C3 hierarchy are keeping an eye on Jude Blaney. Its not so much a test of Blaney (what he will do is predictable) but a test of how C3 management manages. Will they protect the people attending or just let it slip into chaos? When C3 Glenelg with Darryl Reeves went belly up in late 1990’s – sex and money – the defence of a senior C3 leader to me was “we didn’t know what was going on, he was our friend” even though we know Phil Pringle had visited Adelaide on many occasions and was seeking the help of senior leaders in a local denomination to try to get intelligence on Reeves.
I think with C3 Marion it won’t really be on the radar until its really goes pear-shaped and becomes a public embarrassment in the eastern states. They tend to ignore things until they explode. They are not cautious enough and very dismissive of any negative info.
At least I can take heart in the fact that Mr Delancey is hated even more than I am.
He’s much smarter and versed in scripture than I am though. Maybe I’m less of a threat?🙂
No one is hated here Q, only false teaching. He’s not smarter, just of a different opinion and likes to use this site as a platform for his personal agenda rather than address individual topics. As I’ve just recently been informed by other moderators.
“He’s much smarter and versed in scripture than I am though.”
Steve Rowe is not smarter than you. For your integrity’s sake, we pray you never compare yourself to Steve Rowe. You do not know the history of that man nor have you the testimonies against this man. The internet can be a very dangerous place. We encourage you Q to test everything Steve says using the scriptures and operating with the mind of Christ you have received through His Holy Spirit.
Nah. He’s got double my IQ. Pretty versed in politics too and articulate. He should become the official PR spokesman for C3. He’s just a pain in the neck when you disagree. 🙂 But i think he plays fair.
Re more interesting question about forced apology in 2003:
Mention of official apology from Mr. Roland Poon Swee Kay towards City Harvest Church, dated January 25 2003.
http://sg.pagenation.com/?p=12292
Apologeticsindex’s news article section, 2003 article. http://www.religionnewsblog.com/2148/poon-says-sorry-pastor-asks-church-to-forgive
More recent Asian article 2012 backs that up too. http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20120627-355754.html
Does Poon still attend the church….?
The quote from Kong Hee: “We’re not going to single him out and he can remain anonymous. That’s the good thing about being in a big church”…looks fine in print but takes on quite a sinister message when you realise that Poon was forced to make PUBLIC apologies. Anonymous? Hardly. He would have felt every single pair on eyes looking at him, and the rest of the church would have got the message.
The pressure on Poon and his family must have been immense.
Yet, this story happens over and over again. The bigger, corporate ‘churches’ no longer praise a person for standing up to corruption..you just get a lawyer contacting you to apologise for your ‘mistake’.
Yes I’ve read that about his apology. I’d like to know where he is now, and would love to interview him.
“….Traumatised, he retracted his statements and issued apologies in five publications while the church issued its own reply to his allegations.
Mr Poon left City Harvest Church after the matter concluded and now worships in another church….”
http://www.asiaone.com/print/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20120628-356025.html
Thanks thinker…Excellent info.
“His questions to the CHC leadership went unanswered. It came to a point that he felt compel to blow the whistle by writing in to The Straits Times alleging improprieties.”
This was from the articles quoted. But, in the end, he or someone paid over 30k to retract what he told the Straits. So, it was a very strange week of events.
In hindsight – and that’s easy to do – if I were him I wouldn’t have gone to the media. How many times did he go to the leadership. I’d be going back several times to the top leadership to discuss it. Even if I had to go seven times and it took me 7 months, and finally he could have said to Kong. “Listen, I am really convinced before God and my conscience that what I am saying is true. You need to stop doing….A and B because it’s wrong in the sight of God and before men. Then give an ultimatum. My next step is to go to the media, and I won’t back down.”
The way he did it shows him to be someone who says one thing then retracts it, then has to get some businessman to waste 30,000 that could have been spent on something better – even if it was a year’s supply of Gloria Jeans coffee.
Better to keep things in-house for as long as possible.
“This was from the articles quoted. But, in the end, he or someone paid over 30k to retract what he told the Straits. So, it was a very strange week of events.”
The religion blog article stated this:
“A source close to Mr Poon said yesterday that the amount was paid by an anonymous donor who knew of the businessman’s financial difficulties.”
If Poon was struggling financially it is definitely understandable that he withdrew his claim under the circumstances. Whether or not it would have been more “moral” to continue the fight with no money against a financial giant like CHC…
A poor man against an extremely rich church (therefore best lawyers) – who is likely to win, whether he was telling the truth or not?
Hi ‘thetruth’ – you are right about all of that, and further more, if only half of the church had walked out at that point (when Mr Poon was intimidated by the hierarchy,) they would probably have been better off. Such events also send the message: ‘you could be next, for speaking out”…
Various ones may think that for a church that size to collapse would be disasterous, and it be would initially, but after some weeks or months, groups of believers would band together, in order to survive.
Maybe they would come back (if there was a building to come back to!) or perhaps form a number of smaller churches and move on. I don’t necessarily wish this on them, as such break ups could have a huge personal cost for some, but may work out better for the furtherance of the real Kingdom of God in the longer term.
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” (Romans 8:28)
Such people would never be sucked into the vortex of Hyper Faith delusion and deception again (it is hoped!) and they would have a much better understanding as to just how accountable leadership needs to be in regard to church funds, especially when mega dollar amounts are involved!. No more “cross-over” projects either (was that an attempt to ‘cross-over’ from the church to the world? Looked like it…)
Whatever the outcome of the Kong Hee trial, the fallout is already diffusing itself over the city state of Singapore and may hang there like ominous smog for some time to come. Let us hope that the Lord’s name will not be needlessly dragged through the mud by false prophets and their willing minions. Let’s also hope that kong Hee will come clean, if he is guilty, and admit his guilt before both God and man.
Let us also hope and pray that the decent people at City Harvest Church (and I am sure that they number in the many thousands,) will see the error of their way in embracing false teachers and their money raking schemes, and seek the Lord as to Bible truth, as opposed to serious doctrinal error, that may still have tragic consequences in time to come.
And finally, let’s hope that they see clearly the connections between Kong Hee and Phil Pringle’s version of “the kingdom” once and for all, and never stray off course, that way again…
Absolutely.