Some C3 supporters have criticized us for saying that C3 leadership pressures their congregations into giving their finances. We would like to see what these same C3 supporters think about this article.
A few years ago, Pringle had Dr Martin teach at a C3 Global Partners breakfast on how church leaders can “encourage” their members to give. (It’s safe to say Phil Pringle has been using fleecing strategies like this for a long time.)
This same friend of Phil Pringle, Dr. Dave Martin, also sits on the advisory board of Joel Osteen’s Champions Network.
This article is from Shannon O’Dell from Breaking all the Rurals:
Tips to a Better Sunday Offering
Dr. Dave Martin, at our C3 Global Partners breakfast, imparted wisdom into me today about an issue many churches miss…THE OFFERING. Why do we skip one of the most blessed moment in worship? Here is the wisdom he imparted to me:
#1 Don’t back off the offering.
Make it a celebration, because givers love to give.
#2 Make sure your music matches your giving moment.
Don’t play the song “He’s Coming Soon” during the offering, because the large donor might say, “If Jesus is coming soon I will just hang on to this and give it to Him directly.”
#3 Givers don’t Kick…Kickers don’t give.
Realize that not everyone will get it, but most will, especially the seeking and unchurched. People will always complain about money and the church. Don’t let that stop you from obeying God.
#4 Tithing opens the window of blessing, and an Offering determines how much comes out of the window.
Tithing is the basic bare minimum and a sacrificial offering is when the overflow pours out.
#5 Change your offering envelopes monthly.
If they look at the same thing week after week it may become insignificant.
#6 Hand the envelopes out, don’t place them in the back of the seats.
Take the time to offer them the opportunity to offer to God.
#7 Share testimony and life change before passing the plate.
Let your church see your vision in action.
#8 Take up two offerings.
Take up the tithe weekly and an offering or “special” offering monthly.
Just some thoughts that might just revolutionize your churches giving.
Source: By Shannon O’Dell, Tips to a Better Sunday Offering, Breaking all the Rurals, http://www.breakingalltherurals.com/2011/tips-to-a-better-sunday-offering, Published 02/16/2011. (Accessed 18/09/2014.)
Yikes !!! Dave Martin did a very poor job, he forgot to mention:
#9 Make sure you take up a “love offering” for visiting speakers (take your 10% before it is handed on.
#10 Make sure you have an annual appeal for the big projects. Advertise it hard four to six weeks leading up to the special offering event. Done well will net at least $2m (NZ).
#11 Involve your Leadership. Lay it on them that if they (Leadership) are not showing the way in their offerings them they should reconsider their role as Leaders.
#12 Get your high flyer business guys to “speak to the offering” (what ever that is) with the strong implications that if the congregation (fan base) give and give plenty then they too can enjoy the same success not only in business but in their personal lives.
#13 Make sure you time the offering correctly. Under no circumstances do you pass the buckets (used to be plates or bags remember?) around AFTER the speaker has spoken. Everyone wants to get away and have no time to stick around for the offering.
#14 About once four to six weeks have one of the fan base come up on stage and give a testimony on how god has supplied a need over recent times. Pick a well known person but one that is from the general crowd to add authenticity. You may have to coach this person as to what to say, this will probably be the first time he or she would have spoken in front of a large crowd. Preferably make the story a heart wrenching one with a followup from the Pastor clarifying any slip ups.
And Pringle paid you how much for your advice and he missed out a least six vital points !! I was tempted NOT to post this, but you know and use all the additional points (and then some) any way.
Ha, Kiwi Pirate… This is exactly a few of the techniques taught for years in C3. I was a part of the inner sanctum of one church. These techniques aren’t even shrouded in spiritual vernacular. It’s “people have plenty of money – one guys just bought a new car. We deserve it – we’ve got to be “pastors” to these wankers. Let’s go in hard this Sunday, we’ve got some travelling expenses coming up”…. I’m not paraphrasing either! This is exactly how the C3 guys talk.
“[…] we’ve got to be “pastors” to these wankers.”
What a surprise: it looks like the wolves hold the sheep in utter contempt (an attitude reminiscent of those famous lovers of money, the Pharisees). This is not at all surprising, and would go a long way towards explaining the brazen attitudes of Yonggi Cho and Kong Hee, who apparently had no qualms at all about sticking their hands in the till.
For those C3 attendees who are reading here, one would have to ask: are you sure that you want to hand your hard-earned cash over to these money-grubbing hypocrites who call themselves your “leaders”?
Exactly correct, I too was part of the inner sanctum here in NZ and these exact same words have been used here as well !!
Also, “if you are a business owner then your business is really god’s business and the church (hate using the word church in this context) is the custodian of it” !!
And, “if you are a business owner then consider using your business to the glory of god by using it as guarantor for “xyz” project” !!
(Incidentally if your business went belly up because you were stupid enough to be conned this way then the church takes no responsibility)
@Churchmaker: Maybe you should start a thread called “Did you know……from the perspective of the inner sanctum” i.e. What the general club members do not get to know but are the instructions given to the inner sanctum.
Rise and Build testimonies – I was on the R & B committee for a few years. Testimonies of blessing could only be about financial blessings. One mother whos child survived a terrible illness after faithfully giving to R&B wanted to testify to this blessing she was told no, it was not a financial blessing? What the?
I attended a regional C3 for a few years. Each year a group of men would attend the Men’s conference at the head precinct. I was shocked at how many tithes or love offerings were taken up during a Friday night and Saturday conference.
Concerning the widow’s mite – I recall that story being used as an enthusiastic “She gave everything she had!” message for the offering, implying we should do all.
Somehow I don’t think the widow was saying, “I’m gonna sow this seed (mite) and receive 100 mites in return!”.
Maybe she was trusting her Heavenly Father to provide her needs, as she gave freely. Big difference.
Hey mate – The other night I had a dream i ran into one of the c3 pastors of where I used to attend. I don’t think it was a nice reception.
Has anyone actually had a chat/confrontation since posting on here?
As I said many times during the Dean Sweetman Barndance (haha), the reason I don’t reveal my true identity is because our area – schools, shops, churches – is a small one. You often bump into people. And it’s not so much me getting confronted – it’s for the sake of my family.
“The other night I had a dream i ran into one of the c3 pastors of where I used to attend.”
I’m sure that would count not as a dream, but rather as a nightmare…
wow, all that Scripture in that article, and someone’s actually calling this the ‘prosperity gospel’?? but it looks like it could’ve been lifted straight out of the new testament..
in reality, the prosperity teachers talk so much about money & success & being great (like in dave martin’s video), i think their congregants have been trained to expect all the money talk.
if these preachers ever gave a real message on sin & repentance, i’m afraid the congregants’ first reaction might be to think their preacher was backsliding..
Dearly me, I’m not gonna comment, well…
#9 – Tell church they’re cursed and/or things will go wrong and/or the devil will take your money if the don’t tithe (favourite in c3)
As I’ve said numerous times, of course I believe God can bless you financially but why aren’t the results uniform as they insinuate they will be, if you give 5-figure amounts?
Heb13:5 – “Your life should be free from the love of money. Be satisfied with what you have, for He Himself has said, I will never leave you or forsake you.” (Holman)
– isn’t that enough?
And finally – I note none of these tips directly address correct motives for giving.
I challenged one of these C3-type pastors to an open debate on the whole tithing issue but my challenge was declined……reason???
There would not be sufficient public interest to make it worthwhile !!!!!!!
“Maybe you should start a thread called “Did you know……from the perspective of the inner sanctum”
Oh boy – could I help out here…and not as a gossip – for things that harm the church.
How about – people doing offering messages are told what to say or what direction to head?
If a group, say youth group, takes up an offering – the senior pastors direct the main church gets a cut?
And fairly certain the church gets a cut of offerings for visiting speakers, TBC.
Oh, and as for the nepotism…
I have *much* to share. It’s quite disgraceful when church leaders treat employees with young families as disposable when they say they are thinking of moving on, changing locks on the doors, email passwords etc, basically ex-employee proofing the church. Sickening. So much for looking after your sheep….”here’s your offer”….
Hi squidaloopa – I think that you’ll find that Kenneth Copeland does it best – some of these false prophets are close to being billionaires, with their own mansions, cars, jets and private collections – as one lady said in the video, Copeland’s office furniture is worth more than most people’s houses.
This is the big league that the Pringles and the Houstons want desperately to break into – fat chance, I say:
Austin – perhaps we should warn people that the keynote speaker at the upcoming C3 Women’s Conference “Everywoman” is this person – Dr. Caroline Leaf.
An obvious admirer of all things “Copeland”.
That’s just disgusting. Prophets of profit.
Hi Churchwatcher – sorry, but I forgot to mention Copeland’s $5 million TV studio – and his own private airport with 2 runways, and a whole shed full of planes – some of them are modern commercially viable machines, with a smattering of older and very valuable “collectable” type models.
Your “tithes” in action, but only if you’re stupid enough to line the pockets of these false prophets, with money that then becomes their ‘false profits’…
Here’s a very interesting link so that you can all see just what happens to your faithfully given “tithes”:
This link is a lot more comprehansive than the last one I posted, and it is a little dated, however, it just goes to show what these “false profits” are spent on – and it is obviously NOT the work of the Lord…
“the keynote speaker at the upcoming C3 Women’s Conference “Everywoman” is this person – Dr. Caroline Leaf. An obvious admirer of all things “Copeland”
Cw, looks like caroline leaf’s also an admirer of all things Osteen..
Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” luke 9:58
“Copeland’s $5 million TV studio – and his own private airport with 2 runways, and a whole shed full of planes”
Jesus needed a place to lay his head.
Copeland needed a place to park his jets..
Caroline Leaf preaches nonsense. It’s not the Gospel! As for Kenneth Copeland, I can’t believe I used to believe his junk, no more.
Leonie D. said:
It breaks my heart reading what the C3 organization are teaching people about tithing.
So the sacrifice of Jesus is no longer enough we have to buy our blessings ?
Is this not reminiscent of ” the purchasing of indulgences ” against which Martin Luther protested and spoke out . Tastes and sounds similar doesn’t it ?
“They love the best seats in the synagogues.greetings in the marketplaces and to be called by men Rabbi Rabbi ( king James reference edition translates Rabbi as Leader)
But you ,do not be called ‘leader” (Rabbi ,teacher) for one is your Leader ,the Christ,and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your Father for one is your Father, He who is in Heaven.And do not be called teachers for one is your Teacher ,the Christ” Matthew 23: 8- read all of 23 as Jesus pronounces woe not blessing on these people .
1 John 2:26
” These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive (lead you astray) But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you ,AND YOU DO NOT NEED ANYONE TO TEACH YOU ,but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true ,and is not a lie ,and just as it has taught you , you abide in Him”
(read all chapter 2 )
So why are we having Leaders meetings/conferences etc when we are all brethren and equal with one Leader,Father Teacher and Head ? Jesus Christ !!!!
Have we rebuilt the Catholic pattern with an elite “Clergy” and “lay people” building great edifices in the name of God .Is this also not reminiscent of the Tower of Babel which God opposed? A man at the top in place of God who hears from God in a special way and where people sit at his feet and follow his doctrine ? The Pope !!
In Matthew 24 Jesus on leaving the temple told them that ” not one stone would be left here upon another,that shall not be thrown down ” So why is there an Arise and Build fund where great amounts of money are being donated for the building of bigger and better buildings?
Doesn’t 1 Corinthians : 3;9- state “We are God’s field. You are God’s building. For no other foundation can anyone lay than Jesus Christ. If anyone builds …with gold ,silver,precious stones,wood,hay or straw …… it will be revealed by fire …. you are the Temple of God if the Holy Spirit dwells in you ” ?
God builds us we don’t build for Him.
I believe what is being taught to people as a “giving ,tithing doctrine ” is in fact extortion .(Dictionary meaning being – crime of obtaining money or anything of value by the abuse of one’s office or authority or by intimidation ; a forced contribution.) Please note it is a CRIME .
1 Corinthians 5: 11 Now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother,who is a fornicator …….. or an extortioner – not even to eat with such a person .(for we do not judge those outside the Church but those inside the church )
I am convinced by the reading of the Word that C3 organization teach a false gospel and false prophecy is also prevalent.
It breaks my heart for the people receiving this doctrine .
Pray there will be repentance and people will go back to the Word of God and reject the teaching of men.
Well said Leonie – you have aptly described the modern day Pharisee – a hypocrite who loves the best places, and also demands the “widow’s mite” – not just the ‘tithe’.
It’s not that we don’t have or need teachers or pastors in the body – we do, but they are meant to exercise a kind of servant leadership. Peter warns the elders in his letter not to lord it over the flock. (1 Peter 5:1 – 4)
To qualify as a leader, a person has to show a stable Christlike character, demonstrate a gifting and calling, and be able to hold his own against the nay sayers – to refute error and also be able to teach sound doctrine. (1 Timothy 3:1-7)
Above all, he must be a good example of what a Christian can be – not perfect, but actually in the process of growing into maturity.
“I am convinced by the reading of the Word that C3 organization teach a false gospel and false prophecy is also prevalent.”
…and I have no problems believing you, at all!
This is what John means in the passage you quoted – the Holy Spirit has lead you into “all truth” concerning the C3 man made movement – you didn’t need anyone to teach you that – it is evident that the Holy Spirit has high lighted the difference between truth and error…
I just hope and pray that many people within C3, who come to this blog regularly, will open their Bibles and allow the Holy Spirit to show them these things.
God will be glorified as many of them “see the light” and come out from that ‘Babylonish’ organisation, that loves power, error and money, more than God.
The love of money is the root of all evil…
Leonie D. said:
Thank you for your response and I have gone back to 1 Peter 5: 1-4
Note if you read carefully it is to plural elders eg more than one .The instruction given to ” Shepherd the flock of God ” So again not one man as Pastor but elders who would be functioning in a pastoral or shepherding role(to watch over – so the sheep don’t stray , to seek them diligently and bring them back if they do stray , guide the sheep to water to drink, guard them from the attack of wolves and other wild beasts- ring any bells? ) Obviously it isn’t possible for one man alone to do this thus the need for elders. Where would any of us be if it were not for the love ,care and Grace of the Chief Shepherd who has truly saved us and brought us back to Himself (may I say continuously as we can continue to stray and be guided back to His side )
The Word tells us to call no man your Leader or teacher however I am sure He doesn’t mean that we don’t lead or teach each other . After all Paul and others are teaching us as we read the Word and we can be lead by the Christlike lives of others in the Body (though it is sometimes the little old lady who is hardly noticed by men who gave only 2 mites – yet she had given all she had – and again there is a lot more to giving than money – those mites may be all your strength , all your listening ear , all your compassion etc )
May I say on that point- are we not leading and teaching each other right here and now ?
There seems to be this new teaching on “Leadership” and teaching people to be “leaders” Has it become a position instead of a way of living ?
I agree with your comment on “servant leadership”
There are five functions which need to be operating in the Body of Christ Ephesians 4:11 apostles,prophets,evangelists,and pastors and teachers …………..for the equipping of the saints ….. edifying the body ………. causes growth in the body.
We seem to have exalted one and sometimes two functions and so how can the body grow ? My personal thought is that 5 in the Bible is the number of Grace I wonder do we need all these functions for Grace to be operating ?? Just a thought !!
One senior Pastor
(CEO perhaps?) jet setting all over the world,living in 3 million dollar houses when a 1 million dollar house would have sufficed ,(think how many eye operations could be done through CBM with the other 2 million) being paid untold amounts of money to preach when the Word tells us not to preach the gospel for financial gain .
1Timothy 6:5 -12 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
Godliness with contentment is great gain (note contentment not money)
Those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition etc etc
Read more of the Bible it’s amazing !!!!
I love His Word He has the best answers . It’s even better when it isn’t twisted to suit your own doctrine (or should I say cause /agenda )
@Leonie D – the “ascension gifts” as they are commonly known, were given by Christ to His body, as each one portrays an aspect of his Earthly ministry:
He was the Apostle: “as the Father has sent Me, so I send you” John 20:21
He was the Prophet; the woman at the well recognised him as such John 4:19
He was the Evangelist; He preached the gospel to the poor Luke 4:18
He was the chief shepherd: “my sheep know my voice” John 10:1 – 18
He was the Teacher: Nicodemus recognised Him as such John 3:2
Nowadays, if you want to make yourself really prominent in the church, you have to go beyond pastoring, and set yourself up as an ‘apostle’ or a ‘prophet’. The problem with this thinking, is that such ministries are the result of a calling of God upon the lives of those that He has chosen – they are not optional extras that one can choose for themselves.
People do not choose what ministry role they will play, but many have graduated from youth leader, to pastor and then to apostle/prophet, when perhaps they should never have entered into a ministry at all. Sometimes “churches” are treated much like family inheritances – when mummy and daddy have retired or passed on, the front door keys to the building are handed to the kids, whether they have a ‘ministry’ calling, or not…
There are so many false apostles and prophets in our day, who cannot prophecy accurately nor can they teach sound doctrine, that many people would not accept a true one, even if they were to appear – and I don’t blame them at all.
Thank God that we do have people who are faithful in their church planting activities, and thank God that we do have men who have a deep insight into God’s word, and can speak prophetically to the church as a body – to give insight into the divine plan for salvation and the ordering of the church (without the “fortune telling” nonsense that often comes with such things!)
This should be the attitude of all true ministries, who may be tempted to let the crowd idolize them from time to time:
“And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (Revelation 19:10)
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy – if someone claims to have such a calling, then what they speak in terms of doctrine and “prophecy” should be honouring and glorifying to God. It should be clearly underpinned with multiple scripture references that agree with the apostle’s doctrine.
If it comes from God, then it should point back to God – big time! If it points towards men and the works of men, or the kingdoms of men, then it is not sealed with the testimony of Jesus. It is not sound doctrine, nor is it to be considered “prophetic”.
Here in NZ the Hillsong/C3 type equivalent is Life Church in Auckland. Head wolf is Paul de Jong. When you read through their website you see that their oversight board consists of, among others, Brian Houston (enough said?)
De Jong is the “group’ spokes person on the tithing thing really. He travels the world peddling this nonsense. Here is a link that you all should read and study well. It gives the Hillsong/C3/LifeChurch side of the argument which leads the flock into heresy alongside the true Biblical teaching on tithing. Study this and get to know it well and you can rebut any of the tithing arguments out there with an open Bible.
It was Russell Kelly’s article that on a warm summer’s night at the beach in 2009 I said to myself, “So that means I dont *have to* tithe?”, and physically felt a weight lift off my shoulders….
Brilliant. I am glad you said you no longer have to TITHE !! Giving, however, is not an option but we give on our own terms before the Lord with a cheerful heart. (unlike the Hillsong/C3/Lifechurch way of tithe then giving on top and all under manipulated compulsion).
Getting the right perspective makes giving a real joy and a blessing all round both to the recipient and the giver alike.
That “weight lift of my shoulders” is very real indeed and such a blessing when it is gone.
Here’s a thought……. I have often wondered if one of these Mega pastors actually got up on their platforms and said “we are no longer going to tithe in this church” and then went on to give the true Biblical stance on giving, what would happen?
I know such a thing would never happen because these ‘pastors’ (cough) would immediately think that their funding would dry up over night…….. BUT…….
supposing one of them was game enough to do it I think that they would be very much surprised!!
I think that if the true Biblical message was taught properly from the pulpit(?) (stage) then the flock would respond appropriately. I think the Lord would see to it that the needs of the church were met and that the needs of the community (poor, widows etc) were met and all would be well.
oh…………… I see the fly in the ointment with my thinking…… there would not be sufficient left over to run the private jet and take lavish holidays etc…….darn!! Oh well I guess god can’t get it right every time so it’s back to plan A.
Just a guest said:
Makes me think that Andrew Kubala learnt a thing or two from the De Jongs…
Isn’t this image all too familiar?
“You can trust me, I have a beach front property for sale in Vermont going for a great price….”
Just a guest said:
My my, how blind I was while attending C3 over the years. I used to get sucked in so deeply to the “Vision Builderss” soppy presentations. So much so, that I truly thought that God was only interested in my miraculous “stretch”. It was blasted from the pulpit week after week, year after year… I hate the month of June now because of it. I reckon deep down, most C3 goers, cringe around that time of year. I used to notice a drop in numbers :). Seriously though I was sucked in and I am ashamed to admit it. Im not talking hundreds of dollars either. (dont worry it wasn’t thousands either – somewhere in between). But I felt so much conviction if I didnt tithe into the building fund. As a “leader” it was almost peer pressure. Can I just say that one year, I brought my mate along to a service.. He was interested in God. Now this friend happened to come during June and naturally I had forgotten the time of year and He basically (this was his first ever really church service) sat through nearly 2 hours of preaching, video presentations, “real life” test-stories and coercion. Because he was wealthy, he honestly thought that I brought him to church to milk him of money. I can tell you that 7 years later, he never set foot in church again. There was nothing said about God and his love for my friend.. Nothing about how different we are as a church and how we welcome people in.. Nothing about Jesus as a saviour, healer, friend.. It was in fact bullying. I was so very embarrassed and couldn’t speak to him about the service, as we sat over lunch scoffing down our sushi. I am fairly certain that today, he still believes that church is about building wealth and that the only way you’re going to get wealth is if you put money into this future building. Now we all know that that works on some investment levels… But not to a sinner. Not to a wealthy entrepreneur who bases his business on tangible exchanges… etc etc.
So guys, the more I read this stuff, the sicker I feel. I dont know if God ever repaid to me what I sowed into that offering that day. What I do know is my heart wasn’t thinking about God and building the church. It was thinking about getting a return of some sort from God. That’s right, getting something for myself. Blessing or whatever it is disguised as. I am utterly ashamed…
“But I felt so much conviction if I didnt tithe into the building fund.”
“Equal sacrifice, not equal amount.” Kong Hee style? Until the tears are running down your cheeks? There are still reports from C3 Oxford Falls of people giving up holidays, downsizing etc so they can give. If that’s their decision, great. In the last building fund I was around for, I thought I’d give just a smidgen, not much. Don’t think I did give anyway.
“I used to notice a drop in numbers”
Spot on. You can be sure that at one c3, the push on previous building funds was so severe it pushed many from the church. They definitely toned it down for their next one, it was obvious.
I mean if you wanna give because you want the buildings to be nice, go for it. Just don’t be pressured. Which I often find with good-meaning believers, is sometimes hard to differentiate between the Spirit and guilt.
Just a guest said:
It wasn’t until recently in my new church that I realised that God doesn’t need my money… WHA!? ….. I KNOW RIGHT!?!?!? SHOCK HORROR! ……. That is right people, He doesn’t need it. Not a cent. Boy oh boy, did I have to mull over that for a time. I had to debug my brain of its (off key) tuning.. It took time and prayer, until I got it. Now that I realise this, whenever I do give MONEY to the church, I choose to give it, because I want to bless and further the House of God, rather than GAIN a blessing for myself. Tricky thing to grasp sometimes. Years of brainwashing… And there is nothing wrong with getting a blessing from Almighty God but I dont want that to be the basis of why I throw money into the (wishing well, uhum) bucket. And to think, All God wants is our hearts. Fancy that!? Even since the beginning of time, God made us for relationship with him and to worship him with all we are.. Not money for some elaborate million dollar (plus) building with all the latest lighting and sound and screens…
I cant imagine the disappointment He feels, when these messages are poured out from the “altar”… He must sit there going “Dont you already know that I sacrificed my Son Jesus? Don’t you know that I have done it all….” My sweet Jesus, how my heart breaks. Daily.
Truth needs to be spoken. Not trickery.
@JAG – There’s no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ Jesus – that kind of guilt is the very thing that mega church leaders want to instill in the crowd – do more – believe more – give more. It’s how they build their earthly kingdoms, but such projects are the works of men.
Consider Abraham, who stumbled and bumbled around the middle east for years, who went in faith on a journey, believing God and taking him at His word. He made lots of mistakes too – Hagar and Ishmael – Lot who ended up in Soddom – telling ‘”fibs” to Pharoah… now that was a big mistake – that could get your head lopped off in a public place, yet Abraham did a similar thing on one other occasion too…
The Bible calls Abraham the father of faith, and the father of many nations, because he always had the desire to seek for something that was of God – he sought for a city with foundations, whose builder and maker is God, and he didn’t realise that goal in this life.
Although many people looking on may consider his antics as that of a bufoon or a failure, scripture places him fairly and squarely in the “Hall of Faith” :
“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” (Hebrews 11:8 – 13)
“God” kind of success requires faith above all else. Even though Abraham was a wealthy man, he did not rely on that wealth to get him through the day. Contrast that to these false prophets who continually flog people for money, as if it was the means to salvation itself.
Pringle and Houston just don’t have a clue…
Austin! You don’t know your Bible! Well, you don’t know the teachings of Andrew Kubala! Of course you can “plant a (financial) seed for salvation”!!!!
The new revelation teaching is in there somewhere.
Hello Mr Squidaloopa – my, my – how far your tentacles can reach…! All the way from C3 to the truth. 🙂
And just who is Andrew Kubala???
Never mind, maybe I’ve got the wrong Bible, or maybe I’m reading the Apochrypha instead, or maybe some footnotes from Creflo? Or maybe I just believe that the word of God is the real “seed” and not money after all, unlike the false prophets?
Anyway, you’re a smart fellow and you’ve worked it out for yourself, but maybe some of those who are onlooking haven’t quite got that far yet? Here’s a clue from Spurgeon himself:
Austin, your comments are always timely and grounded in the truth. Thank you!
I was thinking, though. Do we really need a clue from Spurgeon (even though it’s a great read)? If people just read a couple verses further they would see that Jesus himself refers to the seed as the word of God. Could it be any clearer? seed = word of God
In the ESV translation, Luke 4:4-15;
“4 And when a great crowd was gathering and people from town after town came to him, he said in a parable, 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell along the path and was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it. 8 And some fell into good soil and grew and yielded a hundredfold.” As he said these things, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
“And just who is Andrew Kubala???”
That’s funny; God would ask that very same question.
@GM – thank you for your very kind comments – I quoted Spurgeon because he said it all. Rather than me parroting him, or at least attempting to, he has said it in detail and has the correct interpretation.
People who follow Copeland et al and their stupid “seed faith” heresy are money minded, so they willingly follow the patchwork quilt of deception, which requires a dozen or more scripture quotes to justify its existence.
They never get as far as the parts where Jesus or the Apostles give an answer to the question – the false prophets have to “keep them jumping” from one proof text to the next, until their deceptive work is done.
The parable of the sower alone, read in its full context, shows them up for the charlatans and deceivers that they are.
“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;” (Ephesians 4:14)
Maturity comes from growth and that growth comes from the watering of the word, by preachers and teachers who are ordained of God. The false prophets will always lead you away from the context of the word, so that you cannot grow – proof texts are not “nutritional” in nature – they are used as a ruse to rob you of God’s best for you.
This is why we need to study the Bible in our own time and together, so that we will gain the maximum from its contents – and in context!
“People who follow Copeland et al and their stupid ‘seed faith’”
for some reason every time the phrase “seed faith” comes up, i think of oral roberts most of all..
@nfg, funny you should mention Oral Roberts. I read a fascinating article on Oral, his family and who would take the reins once Oral passed on / retired. Needless to say the Bible doesn’t seem to feature prominently in his thinking…
GM, thats an interesting link i have not seen.
this entire word-faith thing is enormous, and has put on “different faces in different places” (my description of it). the televangelists in that link alone have siphoned off vast amounts from professing believers.
but even after being told this, many addicts to the word-faith movement still point fingers at us & cry foul for trying to free them from bondage to lies, false teachings & leaders of dubious (at best) character. many addicts would simply rather keep paying to get their ears tickled..
they’re paying a lot. they must want it bad..
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” (2 timothy 4:3)
Here is the Gathering at ORU (a multi-day tv event).. click speakers.. they had dave martin there too:
i cant sit thru more than a couple minutes of his cotton candy talk.
“It was Russell Kelly’s article..[on tithing]..”
squidaloop, interesting you mention RK. ive been looking at bill johnson of bethel church redding, and noticed their statements on tithing several days ago, and also noticed russell kelly’s article on him.
notice bethel’s website says.. “Tithing is one of the Lord’s tools for ushering us into a generous lifestyle.”
bill johnson — bill johnson ministries salary (2007) = $372k
bill johnson — bethel church redding pastor salary = $unknown
johnson’s pastor salary cant be shabby either. Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM) alone has 1,200 students spending $9,000 each to graduate (tuition fee).
looks like some of that “miracle gold dust” has found its way into bill johnson’s bank account..
Austin – don’t scare me like that….and I’m far from c3…though I’ve still got a tentacle in there, feeling around for some treasure or to rescue some other sea creatures that might end up getting eaten by a shark, or stung by a stonefish. I occasionally get the latter, still.
Ok nighty night.
@Squid – I recognise the fact that you are far from the clutches of those who would want to deceive you… good for you bro. It’s the serious times that we live in, and a general concensus that we are living in “perilous times” as Paul said that cause me concern, and the blindness of your average pew warming Christian that has to be seen to be believed.
There has never been a time like our time on the Earth, and many things spoken of by prophets, apostles and by Christ Himself are coming true:
“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.”
(Matthew 24:5 – 8)
I believe that we are living in those days…
Ok, well getting ready to go out this morning – I think I was shaving actually. I was thinking about some of this stuff. And, not saying it was the Spirit, but my mind was recalled to the Parable of the Wheat and Tares.
I read a few brief commentaries; Gill had something interesting to say about the tares:
“….not of profane sinners; though these are the children of the devil; but of professors of religion, men either of bad principles, or of bad lives and conversations; whom Satan, by some means or another, gets into churches, and they become members thereof: at first they look like wheat, like true believers, have a show of religion, a form of godliness, an appearance of grace, but are destitute of it; and prove tares, unfruitful, unprofitable, and of no account, yea hurtful, and whose end is to be burned.”
…not singling out anyone in particular, but you’d think we’re seeing some of this now?
Shocked that “Dr” Dave can actually speak more than two sentences without telling a lame old mother-in-law joke. He’s a terrible preacher.
Tracey B said:
I went to a C3 Church in WA and the Pastor spent a good amount of time going on about tithing. He made me feel it was a sin not to give 10% to God. My family and I simply could not afford to tithe all the time. We have now left the church and because we weren’t big tithers nobody cares, yet when another member left the church the Pastor called him up to come back. This member was tithing $100 a week of course the Pastor would try and get him back.
Hi Tracy – ever wonder why they have “big giver” dinners for those that pledge over a certain amount for the building fund?
Oh and that Russell Kelly site about tithing is the one that lifted the weight from my shoulders re not *having to* tithe. I literally felt a weight come off.
@Tracey B – here’s a well worn path to an interesting website on ‘tithing’ if you haven’t seen it before:
I remember when a church goer placed flyers on every car one Sunday with the truth and this website. They were thrown out of the church instantly – she had volunteered as Worship leader for many years on the promise she would one day get paid. One must not forget that this is the Pringle Family business always was and will be. Trust funds set up for them to enjoy life.
Pringle claims that at times he and his wife have not received a salary from C3, but instead asked people to “partner” with them to provide financial support. http://i.imgur.com/tiLgxNP.jpg from
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=DadYAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT55&vq=salary&dq=inauthor:”Phil+Pringle”&output=html_text&source=gbs_search_r&cad=1 What, Pringle can’t sell enough paintings so he has to ask for a handout to put petrol in Harley?
It’s interesting that Pringle states the following in “Letters to Next Generation Leaders”:
“Greed makes a leader resort to manipulating his people with deception, fear, false teachings to in order to extract money from them.”
Which is a an *exact* description of his very own modus operandi – for example, what else would Phil call it when you threaten those who fail to “tithe” with the prospect of being “cursed” by God, if not manipulation through fear in order to extract money?
It seems as though Phil has a subconscious need to confess his many wrongdoings – maybe the pressure of the cognitive dissonance he lives with is taking more of a toll on him than we realised, although his signature behaviours of irritability and defensiveness have certainly provided plenty of clues in the past. Suppressed guilt is a particularly corrosive emotion, as Phil seems to have discovered – although perhaps a little belatedly. It is the most exquisite of tortures to live in a prison of one’s own making, and a far cry indeed from freedom in Christ.
Phil has loads of money but no peace, and it really makes you wonder: if he had his time over again, would he choose to do things differently?
The number of these greedy money hounds who pretend to be Christian pastors is everywhere you turn. They have one thing in common, theyre all liars twisting the Bible for personal profit. They all make me wanna throw up.
Its amazing how these money greedy pastors manipulate people. These Pringle-types are everywhere.