Who is Dr. Caroline Leaf?
Once again, absurdity has gripped the leadership of C3 Church Oxford Falls. This time, Chris Pringle will be introducing yet another spurious ‘speaker’ to many Christian women who attend their Everywoman conferences worldwide.
Chris Pringle openly endorses Caroline Leaf and has invited Dr. Leaf to be keynote speaker at the 2014 EveryWoman’s Conference
Source: Everywoman Events, My C3 Church, http://www2.myc3church.net/category/everywoman-events,
Image 1: http://www2.myc3church.net/sites/default/files/images/664%20X%20360_EW%20WEB%20BANNERS.png,
Image 2: http://www2.myc3church.net/sites/default/files/images/EW%202014_980%20X%20370%20SPECIAL%20GUEST.png. Accessed 11/09/2014.
Who does Caroline Leaf endorse and what does she believe in?
ASSOCIATIONS & ENDORSEMENTS
Let’s see where Dr. Caroline Leaf begins her ascent up the celebrity speaker ladder within the Evangelical Industrial Complex. Let’s start from the lowest rung to the top and see where it takes us.
Here is Dr. Caroline Leaf on a show with the the infamous WOF heretic Marilyn Hickey (both she and Phil Pringle sit on David Yonggi’s Church Growth International board).
As you can see, Dr. Caroline Leaf spouts a lot of New Age nonsense that cannot be backed up in her field of work. What are your thoughts on this claim in the above video?
“Your health improves as you try to understand your spouse. Your intelligence and health improve when you actually try to understand the opposite sex.”
Here we have Dr. Caroline Leaf praising the Copelands and being embraced by Gloria Copeland (wife of the notorious Ken Copeland). Click the thumbnail to see a larger picture.
Wow! Surrounded by royalty! @commanderkellie@terrisavellefoy and the amazing Gloria Copeland!
Source: drCarolineleaf, Instagram, http://instagram.com/p/p3CdAvhzxm/?modal=true. (Accessed 19/09/2014.)
Once again, Dr. Caroline Leaf has no problem associating herself with the fringe lunatics of the heretical camps, those of “Fractured Fairy Tale” fame on “Fighting For The Faith”.
Here’s Caroline Leaf on Sid Roth’s “It’s Supernatural” program. Sid Roth was stunned when he said that Caroline Leaf told him that “we can change our genes” (1:50).
He then turns to Caroline and says, “But you say, according to the latest brain research [Caroline nods approvingly], if you follow what Jesus said, you can change your genes”. Said Roth: “That’s just so amazing!” Caroline’s reponse? “I know. It’s phenomenal.”
It’s also disturbing she would teach alongside notorious “Christian” whackos like Joshua Mills, Stacey Campbell and the laughable Patricia King at an event called the School of Daniel. This is,
” […] a 3-week intensive training school focusing on topics such as: The supernatural, personal transformation, spiritual transformation, cultural transformation, leadership, the kingdom of God, kingdom finance & kingdom business. It will feature speakers such as: Shawn & Michelle Gabie, James Goll, Sammy Robinson, Dr. Caroline Leaf, Shawn Bolz, Joshua Mills, Patricia King & Stacey Campbell.”
Source: About, School of Daniel, http://www.schoolofdaniel.com/info/index.php, Accessed 26/10/2014.
DOCTRINE & PRACTICE
Furthermore, she is starting to attract valid criticisms online. One such critic is Dr C. Edward Pitt. To end, we have provided part one of his articles for our audiences to read and other articles he has written exposing the strange suppositions of Caroline Leaf.
Dr Caroline Leaf – Serious questions, few answers (Part 1)
Posted on August 4, 2013
Caroline Leaf. The name is popping up more and more around Christian circles. I was curious to hear her speak, since as a Christian and a (family) physician, I like to know how people integrate science and spirituality. So I took the opportunity to drive down to Kings Christian Church on the Gold Coast to hear what she had to say.
I left with more questions than answers. And some serious concerns.
The following blog posts are a discussion on some of the points that she raised. I simply don’t have the time to go through all of them, although I’m seriously considering whether to do a formal review and response to her teaching.
I had to divide up the original post into three parts to make it more manageable. Here’s part 1, in which I review her academic qualifications, her link of thoughts and illness, our innate wiring, and the myth of the mini-brain.
Part 2 of this post will look further at the pecking order of the mind and brain, some miscellaneous issues, and her ‘professional’ opinion on ADHD.
Part 3 will examine her claim that “Toxic thoughts are sin” and why such a statement is incongruent with the Christian faith.
IS SHE A COGNITIVE NEUROSCIENTIST?
For a start, she was introduced as a cognitive neuroscientist. Her CV lists her degrees as a Bachelor of Science, Masters in Speech Therapy and Audiology, and a PhD in Communication Pathology. She did not advise where she has tenure or does her research. Her CV lists guest lectures at a few Universities (Wits, University of Pretoria, University of Cape Town, University of Western Cape Annual Education Conference, SASHLA, Rotary Foundation), but no tenure.
Admittedly, the definition of a cognitive neuroscientist is somewhat vague (http://careersinpsychology.org/becoming-a-cognitive-neuroscientist/) but the term ‘cognitive neuroscientist’ confers the idea that one is actively involved in cognitive neuroscientific research, or at least in the recent past.
So the question remains: is she really a cognitive neuroscientist, or is she just a woman with a PhD that reads a lot?
THE CORRELATION OF ILLNESS AND THOUGHT
The next thing to grab my attention was her statement: “75 to 98% of ALL illness is related to our thought life.” Somehow I doubt that. The influence of stress is high. But I am a GP – I see sick people everyday, on the coal face, before they are collected in subspecialist clinics, or improve spontaneously. It’s a real stretch to ascribe stress to more than 30%. Looking at her book ‘Who Switched Off My Brain’ (Leaf 2009, p15), she says that 80% of all diseases are the result of our thought lives. So her own figures are conflicting. (The other thing is that, for a PhD recipient, she has poorly referenced her book!)
Besides, stress causes illness, but I’m not yet satisfied she’s proven that ‘negative’ thought and stress are the same thing.
She also claimed that the brain and the heart connect to every cell in your body. Again, it’s a bit of a stretch. Every cell needs to be bathed in nutrients from the blood which in turn is connected to the heart, and nerves are every where. But there are many cells that are not innervated directly.
The only way that the brain or the heart are connected to every cell is simply because, technically, every cell is connected to every other cell. Like if everyone in a church stood up and held hands, the man in the front row would be “connected” to the woman in the back.
But she went further on her theory, by claiming that the heart has a mini-brain that directly influences the real brain – by making moral decisions on its own, and that it is part of our conscience. She justified her statement by saying that the heart has 40,000 interconnected nerve cells, and the heart is directly connected to the brain. But on that same logic, my rectum could be a mini-brain and be part of my conscience.
She alluded to the effect of ANF, atrial natriuretic factor. There are actually three natriuretic peptides. ANF, produced by the top two chambers of the heart, actually regulates blood pressure (http://www.cvphysiology.com/Blood%20Pressure/BP017.htm). If it has an effect on thought, it is secondary, not primary.
WIRED FOR OPTIMISM?
She also states that we are wired for optimism, and that emotions like fear are learned. That doesn’t make sense since I have seen research that shows a newborn baby is wired for pleasure and emotions like disgust. These pathways are developed and refined during childhood, but we are born with built-in templates for basic emotion.
I will have more in the next 24 hours, including her statement on the pecking order of the mind and brain, some miscellaneous issues, and her ‘professional’ opinion on ADHD.
Leaf, C. (2009). Who Switched Off My Brain? Controlling toxic thoughts and emotions. Southlake, TX, USA, Inprov, Ltd.
Source: By Dr C. Edward Pitt, Dr Caroline Leaf – Serious questions, few answers (Part 1), Dr C. Edward Pitt, http://cedwardpitt.com/2013/08/04/dr-caroline-leaf-serious-questions-few-answers-part-1/, Published 04/08/2013. (Accessed 26/10/2014.)
You can read more article on Caroline Leaf on his website:
Dr Caroline Leaf – Serious questions, few answers (Part 2)
Dr Caroline Leaf and the shotgun approach
Dr Caroline Leaf and the cart-before-the-horse conundrum
Dr Caroline Leaf and the myth of the myth of multitasking
Dr Caroline Leaf – Exacerbating the Stigma of Mental Illness
Labels – the good, the bad, and the ugly
Or you can read Dr C. Edward Pitt’s book exposing Caroline Leaf’s teachings:
Hold That Thought – Reappraising The Work of Dr Caroline Leaf
How many women will pay to go to this conference to see Dr. Caroline Leaf, a celebrity ‘life coach’ posing as a Christian speaker? That same speaker being one who will only to lead her listeners into false doctrine? And the C3 pastors and leaders, who should know better, those men who continue to allow women to usurp the role of pastor, choose to remain silent.
In closing, with C3 promoting a ‘wannabe’ Christian speaker, have they done their homework? No! Instead what we see again and again, ‘impastors’ like Chris Pringle at these events doing what Jesus calls the “blind leading the blind”. In the promo Chris for this event Chris Pringle runs with the motto, “Now I See”. We decided to offer this reality check to Chris Pringle.
Well, Churchwatcher – that’s quite a line up, isn’t it?
I’m afraid that they missed out on a few ‘locals’ though:
1. False apostle Katherine Rounala of GG fame (NAR) (www.katherineruonala.com) and (http://www.glorycitychurch.com.au/)
2. Then there’s Amanda Wells (who claims to be a prophet and a business coach , and all at the same time – quite a juggling act, if you ask me) (http://wellsministries.com.au/site/about-amanda/) and then last, but by no means least:
3. Faylene Sparks (formerly Faylene Hill of COC/SOP pedigree, now independent “prophetess”) (http://www.faylenesparkesministries.com/bio/)
I just thought that I’d mention a few more names – I wouldn’t want them to feel left out… not from a line up like that one…
Astute – They will probably be part of the audience taking copious notes for their next engagements!
Chilli (@chilistephenson) said:
I wonder who is watching and judging Churchwatch. You seem jealous and bitter with others success. Who are you to judge any of the people you judge??
“You seem jealous and bitter with others success.”
You seem brainwashed considering that is exactly what these Hillsong and C3 cults indoctrinate people to believe about their critics.
Want to actually address the issue at hand? Dare to care for Christ and His Word?
@Chili, you have many false teachers in your Twitter and Website.
You don’t really believe all that positive confession nonsense, do you?
“I wonder who is watching and judging Churchwatch.”
Apparently that would be you.
What a shame that you have neither the wit nor the knowledge to formulate a worthwhile opinion. How unfortunate that you are so singularly lacking in discernment, so utterly bereft of the Holy Spirit, and so pitiably blind.
“You seem jealous and bitter with others success.”
Yep. Most of all, I’m consumed with jealousy at *your* success – after all, you *are* ever so rich and famous, aren’t you?
“Who are you to judge any of the people you judge??”
It’s a funny thing, isn’t it? As I read your comment, I was thinking the exact same thing about you – who are *you*? Sadly, it’s clear that you are just another ignorant blowhard with a vastly inflated idea of his own importance.
Oh, of course you’re also a “poet”, aren’t you? I guess we should have known that from your exquisitely crafted comment, which belies a wonderful feel for the language and sublime powers of expression the like of which are rarely observed these days.
C3 cult: proudly turning out absolute morons since 1980.
“C3 cult: proudly turning out absolute morons since 1980.”
C3 cult: proudly turning out absolute morons AND HERETICS since 1980.
Or perhaps Carolyn will show the ladies how to ‘sew together some (fig) leafs’, in order to cover their doctrinal sins??? (FIGuratively speaking, of course…)
I’ll bet you a beer/coffee/soft drink there will be a “scientific” link between “giving” and optimism, good life etc. Cue fragile female heartstrings to give. On the contrary, God loves a cheerful giver, not a forced/manipulated giver.
In other news, please don’t confuse neuroscientist with neurologist. BIG BIG difference. I wouldn’t want someone saying that happy thoughts are gonna manage my neurological condition…
According to Leaf and “Science” our brains are wired for love. However does the bible not say we were BORN is trespasses and sin?
This is one strange lady, KiwiPirate. How she crept in under the radar and gained ‘credibility’ so quickly, could almost convince us she’s judgement on the tickled ear lovers.
Jude 1:4 “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ”.
We had to endure her here in NZ recently at one of the Life Church conferences (Paul de Jongs lot). Some of the stuff that was put up on different feeds was just utter nonsense but the faithful all turned up to pat homage!!
“but the faithful all turned up to pat homage!!”
Exactly – whatever comes off these pulpits is right, never questioned – until you have the courage/maturity to do so yourself. I’m still unlearning stuff after many years.
andy Kanapoulos said:
It’s also disturbing she would teach alongside notorious ‘Christian’ whackos like Joshua Mills, Stacey Campbell and the laughable Patricia King at an event called the School of Daniel.”
The dynamic duo… Patricia King and Joshua Mills (both *NAR).
It’s most astounding that *NAR audiences are gullible enough to abandon sound Bible teaching and apologetics for things like the following…
ref: Galatians 1:6-7a
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- 7 which is really no gospel at all.
The Narrowing Path said:
Reblogged this on The Narrowing Path and commented:
A great article from C3 ChurchWatch warning of more poison being peddled to the women of Australia. Yet again the false church offers false doctrine and false hope to the perishing, and has the gall to charge money for the privilege.
@ The Narrowing Path: Thanks for reposting – the warning needs to be shouted from the rooftops. Our prayer is that women attending the Everywoman Conference have their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit. That their walk with the Lord forever change tack, and move forward into Truth.
“the warning needs to be shouted from the rooftops”
… but instead we’ll just quietly type it online from out dark bedrooms of our parents’ houses that we never moved out of…
Andy – I thought we were all in our mothers’ basements, sitting on bean bags in our underwear, eating “Cheeto’s”! 😄
So Andy, since you have nothing to say about the warning itself, should we assume that you agree that the substance thereof is correct?
Or do you disagree with it, but find yourself completely unable to mount any sort of rebuttal, whether based on theology, logic, or common sense?
What’s wrong with living at your parents house? Free rent! Free babysitting! Oh that’s right, 24/7 God TV, TBN, Patricia King et al…. 😳
Good on her for her study.
But please – look at the difference between a neuroscientist and neurology. Look it up on the Internet on medical sites. I’m not saying she’s not a scientist, she obviously is – but try being a neuroscientist and treating a pregnant woman with epilepsy. Completely out of their league.
And… if you’re wondering what Patricia king has on offer, here it is:
“Did you know that you can freely access the throne of grace, acquaint yourself with the glorious supernatural phenomenon in the Kingdom, encounter the Lord and His angelic majesties, and much more?”
The Glory School is a power-packed, informative school that offers you in-depth Bible teaching and training and introduces you into Holy Spirit led, Kingdom encounters. Come and soar with us into realms of heavenly glory.”
Sounds like an NAR hound to me…
(her old website has been shut down)
Notice how these people always have a ‘Glory School’ or a ‘Prophetic School’, as if being a prophet or an apostle is something you could learn by attending so many classes? Of course, what it is, is usually some form of New Age Gnosticism – the ‘higher life” as Kenneth and Gloria Copeland used to call it. It’s books, tapes and videos and lots of conferences, before you are “qualified”…
Nowadays it’s called “the next level” and yes, you have to pay big money for ‘Gnosticism 101’…
Apart from the teacher, no one ever graduates from Gnosticism 101.
Just a guest said:
SMH…. again… Seriously I do have a problem with these itinerant ministers making money from something that God has given to each of us freely. These “workshops” or “Glory Schools” should not be operating as income generating businesses. Any power that we have, comes from the only source, Jesus. To actually qualify yourself and then charge people money to gain some gift that you allegedly have, is just abhorrent.
Reminds me of the Kubalas. They do “Healing Teaching Events” to teach us that our faith in Jesus is what heals us.. I may not be a healing evangelist but I certainly done see any benefit in being taught how to heal people. It’s all through the Bible. A simple sermon on it is enough for me. Not an event. A cash cow in other words.
Im sorry but I really struggle with all of this. I dont want to discredit genuine ministries and gifts, but to charge money for it (not to mention another offering) is really shameful. If your ministry is God breathed, then he will take care of all of that.. Or maybe you dont have enough faith to BELIEVE.
Just a Guest – don’t worry – I get sceptical about people offering “prophetic workshops”, “glory schools”, where you get to understand “Christian mysticism”, “operate in trances” etc. I was going to reply yesterday with something about Patricia King. I’m not sure about her “prophetic revelations” personally. I don’t understand why her “prophetic” has to be “extreme”. Like you said – why do they need to be announced in lights and big names?
So on the contrary, I looked up the web page of a very well-respected Australia/NZ speaker who is known to be prophetically accurate (depending on what people’s theological stance is we may not agree), ie not doom and gloom, dates etc, more specifically to people and churches. So on their website they do offer “prophetic workshops”. I was a bit taken back, seeing that King obviously does similar. However I looked at their content; you can see from the start it’s not mystical, it doesn’t add to Scripture, it’s for building the church, building individuals, Biblically sound. Plus this person is very humble, not glitz and glam; they have a proven track record of prophecy, unlike the big names you see on TV – who “prophesy” who’s gonna be the next US president etc, and get it wrong, then say they’re allowed to get 50% wrong or something.
So yeah this is a bit sidetracked, but I agree to a point. I think it’s the attitude and fruit behind them. Some would say much harsher things about people like King and friends. I’m still figuring her and others out. But when you’ve gotta big note yourself and treat prophecy and other ministries like celebrity, maybe there’s something wrong.
@ Squidaloopa – while you’re trying to figure Patricia King out, let’s start with the tip of the iceberg….
False Teacher Patricia King Meets Werewolves in London – YouTube : http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gokeb6xMhbE&autoplay=1
FF to 2:00 point to figure out the “ox apostolic annointing”.
Is P.K. related to jk rowling?
OK great thanks for the link:
1 – I watched that video several times, not for the theological content but because that song is so great.
2 – Thanks for putting me onto Todd Friel – he’s like Chris Rosebrough but more aggressively cynical. I saw a video of his this week where Furtick’s Elevation Church removed a kid in a wheelchair from the service because his “amen” was a moan. Worth looking up.
3 – I re-read that Bob Jones/Bentley/King thing. Right, so a big name Christian celebrity can go to the 3rd Heaven as he pleases. [Squid rolls eyes, shakes head]. Oh, and why does Heaven smell like Vanilla? Did someone spill their milkshake whilst they were “going to Heaven”? I’m sure Heaven would smell of coffee, maybe even chocolate?
You might enjoy this one Squidaloopa. Apparently there’s an entrepreneurial anointing. I would have thought that was tied up already in the mega-church system with its leaders.
NAR’S PATRICIA KING AND THE ENTREPRENEUR ANOINTING : Apprising Ministries : http://apprising.org/2011/11/17/nars-patricia-king-and-the-entrepreneur-anointing/
Hey Mr Squid – maybe it was Gloria Jean’s coffee???
Yeah thanks CW – I had seen that before too. It’s not new though – there is the “entrepreneural blessing/spirit etc” taught in some c3’s. While I don’t suggesting God cannot prosper a business you own, is there an entrepreneurial “anointing” though? There seems to be an “anointing” for everything. And having been raised on that concept, it’s interesting delving into the Scriptures to discover what is true.
Oh sorry before I forget – does Dr Leaf remind you of Wendy Alec? I would recommend Dr Leaf’s book to Wendy but to make a joke about that right now might be a bit harsh….(husband and God TV co-founded Rory had an affair)
Just a guest said:
Sorry a few errors above but I genuinely get annoyed by this sort of thing. Christians making money of each other under the guise of “giftings”.
JAG, you seem to be under the impression that these are not for profit organisations. Let’s be very clear on this, these people are there precisely to make money. They preach that if you tithe, give to the building / love / whatever fund that God will bless you multiples of what you give. And do you know how they prove that? They take all the money that that have collected, adopt a multi-millionaire’s lifestyle with all the trimmings, and they say “well look at me”.
Sure they’ll make it look like they’re only drawing a “modest” or “low end CEO” salary, but what they don’t disclose is the money made on seminars/workshops and things like book sales (yes they will tell everyone in the church to buy multiple copies of their book to give to people.). They don’t disclose what they get from “love offerings” when they decide to preach at another church. Personally I suspect those are the kinds of things that transfers wealth from the church to their personal account.
Well said Icarus – and here’s the nuts and bolts’ of how they do it: simply Google this phrase JAG:
“How Pastors Get Rich” and your eyes will be opened…
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
(2 thess 2:3)
“For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.” (matthew 24:24)
this patriciaa king of new apostolics reformation has already begun her own 2 thess 2 now. she cant wait for the big event.
brethren, if they cant resist it now, wait till the real action starts up.. widespread apostasy is on the way.
she makes 1 big mistake. she says “You know this is from God because it draws us closer to Him.”
wrong. that is not the test. the test is: “Does it line up with Scripture?” and “Does the group distort Scripture to make Scripture fit their beliefs?”
this group fails the test on many levels.
i think it will get very convincing. many will be fooled. take heed my good friends here, nfg
Interesting…..I’ve heard of this stuff happening, even to people in private. Some people also hear things distinctly from God about people. So did Peter Popoff – or so we thought….
Stop press! I swear I just saw Ms King at a Brisbane CBD restaurant. But she’s supposed to be in Townsville ministering right now. Well her meeting finished at 2:30. I saw her about 2:50. Who knows – maybe she teleported down here as she claims people do! Very nice restaurant to end up in!
Have you also noted she is described as “a passionate, prophetic personality”. I didn’t think prophetic was a personality….
Gee I’m getting skeptical in my old age. But shhh – it was actually a hope of mine to get teleported too – maybe right into a corporate box at the grand final!
@Squid – maybe Patricia King was at this church last week? Couldn’t find anything on the Glory Gathering website (that’s usually where she goes when she’s in town) but she is billed to appear at the HIM women’s conference for 2015:
squidaloopa, one interesting thing is these false signs “gold glitter — oil — gems — feathers” has been mostly restricted to that nar lie.
i think eventually it will spread to others like the hillsong lie and c3 lie.
if that happens the simple-minded would be quick to point out how these other movements are also being backed up by signs & wonders ‘from God’.
they havent grasped the Word of God is THE yardstick. a lot of ppl are questioning the veracity & validity of the Bible (bart ehrman & others). but the Bible is THE yardstick by which all lives will be judged..
i was watching a teaching by bill johnson looking for errors. i found within 5 minutes him elevating signs & wonders to where he casted doubt on the Bible. if i find it again i will post it..
i keep noticing this. once a group diminishes the importance of the Bible for any reason or cult personality, they begin their drift into error..
@NFG – Biblically speaking, where signs and wonders appeared in scripture, they usually followed the preaching of the word. Of course that ‘word’ was usually the Gospel, and even if ‘signs’ followed a sermon in a church meeting, there was a purpose in it.
God does not waste or display His divine power so that fleshly, self centered ‘ministries’ can get off on it, nor does He extend that power to others, who can then run amuck with it – damaging people and recommending themselves to the crowd as supposed miracle workers.
Nobody had a ‘signs and wonders’ ministry in the early Church – nobody was busy running “side show alley” just so they could make a fast buck, and nobody used false and sickly ‘miracles’ like oil, gemstones and false angelic manifestations (along with gold dust etcetera).
What our detractors must remember, is that none of the false NAR miracles have any reference in scripture, and therefore, there’s no evidence of them being part of what the Bible teaches as ‘signs and wonders’ – they are just not on the list…
astute, i know what youre saying..
when i became a Christian a few ppl at my church told me kenneth copeland & kenneth hagin were prophets & good teachers etcetera.
eventually i figured out something was rotten in denmark & i started putting the pieces together on whos telling the truth & who’s not.
now im tired about being lied to for so long i check almost everything out.
these nar’s signs & wonders thing has taken on a life of its own. it has nothing to do with 1st century miracles. 1st century Christians would be writing epistles to nar churches today over this stuff these ignorant nar ppl are calling ‘miracles’.
i used to think stigmata was a catholics-only thing. nope. ceheck out lucy rael with this other nar guy jeff jansen in the vid below. watch jansen hes so excited about this hes almost ready to pass out.
but like i was saying, is it in the Bible? nope. these ppl are like esau giving up his birthright for a bowl of stew. they gladly throw Scripture & doctrine under the bus for one more false sign.
i’m convinced these false’signs & wonders’ will start happening at hillsong — c3 too eventually, ‘validating’ the ministries there.. nfg (rolls eyes)
Hey NFG – these false signs and wonders are probably those mentioned in 2 Thess 2:7 – 12:
“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness…”
Notice that Paul says in verse 7, that the mystery of Iniquity was already at work in his day. Although this passage may well play out in the end times, i believe that the ‘great falling away’ began a long time ago…
It seems that I’m stating the obvious here, but it’s only obvious, if you have your eyes opened. I hope and pray that we are able to pull some out of the fire, as the apostle Jude enjoins us to do:
“And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh…” (Jude 1:23)
“these false signs and wonders are probably those mentioned in 2 Thess 2:7 – 12”
i believe youre right. these are probably some of them, with different ones yet to come as (like the saying goes) things build to a crescendo.
“Notice that Paul says in verse 7, that the mystery of Iniquity was already at work in his day.”
interesting. its similar to this (was also already at work) which ive always found interesting..
“Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists HAVE come. This is how we know it is the last hour.” (1 john 2:18)
“I hope and pray that we are able to pull some out of the fire, as the apostle Jude enjoins us to do”
we’ll try to pull some out, just so we dont get as close to the fire as nebudchanezzers soldiers did in daniel 3:22…
personally ive thought these strange signs are setting them up to where they will believe almost anything. but problem is whats to come wont just be almost anything, i think it will absolutely “wow” them..
“And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast..” (rev 13:13-14)
ive seen a couple others i dont want to post, theyre too much. i think this is only a warm-up.. trivial stuff.. and these ppl already cant stay out of the cookie jar..
its almost turned me from a near-complete continuationist into an near-complete cessationist.. and i was in a very very charismatic church.
also notice this..
“false christs and false prophets will arise and perform GREAT signs and wonders”
Here’s a summary of the false prophets in the last days, (and further down below) the “silly women” they have captured and manipulated:
“Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good. Traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.” (2 Timothy 3:2 – 8)
Well, there it is – the guided tour of false prophets and their victims (in summary form,) from a Bible point of view… It is my contention that many of the women who host – AND attend such ‘conferences’ are epitimised here in this passage.
Please note, I am not the enemy of all ‘womenkind’ – I just want to spare them the horrible fruits of false doctrine, by exposing the deceptions at this level, in the hope that some of them may avoid the pitfalls that ‘come with the territory’ in the end times…
these cults are making a fortune peddling their last days tickled-ear garbage..
— the word-faith lie convinced them they have to give 10% to be blessed.
— the nar lie convinced them they need to attend schools to learn spiritual secrets.
its getting ridiculous, nfg
Yes NFG – it’s almost like becoming a member of a cult, isn’t it? I was reading about the JW’s recently, and how they operate.
Lots of ‘top down’ management, lots of ‘meetings’ to go to , lots of targets to meet (how many doors did you knock on this month brother/sister?) and lots of magazines to sell while you’re there…
It’s all a works trip, but the same kind of thing happens – they ‘reinvent’ the Bible, make their New World Translation a watered down mess, then they present Christ as a man/angel that God simply used for a time and then discarded, turning his body into gases.(Pure Gnosticism)
The end result is that no one gets born again (unless they get out). Then have an entire movement (approximately 7 million world wide) who believes in a false Christ, who offer them a false, Earth bound “salvation’ which is solely based on good works.
So what’s the difference between say, the JW’s and Hillsong?
1. Both movements were formed with a false foundation
2. Both movements use false/watered down versions of the scriptures
3. Both movements tend to tear family relationships apart
4. Both movements have covered up sexual sin and abuse
5. Both movements present a false Christ with no hope of true salvation
6. Both movements have marketed themselves well towards their intended targets
7. Lots of lies are told by the leadership of both movements…
Let’s face it – any movement that is founded on a lie, will ultimately produce the fruit of bigger and better lies at the end. The JW’s have falsely prophesied the end of the world, five times since their inception – it’s never happened.
For example: Frank Houston’s alleged “vision” to come to Australia to set up churches in different locales – it was obviously just another lie, and one told to avoid prosecution within the jurisdiction of New Zealand’s courts system. That is the lie. There never was a ‘vision’ from God…
The truth, is that the Hillsong ‘church’ should not exist at all – I and others have said it before. If Frank Houston had been dealt with in the New Zealand justice system, Brian Houston would never have made it to our shores.
The whole of the last 30 years is one big fat lie!
Wonderful man of God? Phooey – never!
i agree with you. there are lots of lies being told. both to the secular world & in ‘the Church’.
on the JWs.. i dont like dealing with any weird groups that walter martin listed in his book, but sooner or later most of us here will end up talking to at least one of them.
personally ive had no choice but to talk one-on-one on multiple occasions with 4 of those groups: JWs, mormons, moonies & hare krishnas.
also there was a 5th unidentified cult group i used to talk to that were in a cult (smaller & not in martins book). i noticed they had a real altar in the back of their van, with their cult leader’s picture (in a frame surrounded by real flowers). it was super creepy.
[trying very hard not to make joke about certain NAR ministers or televangelists having a mobile church]
@Squid – do you mean a ‘tent ministry’ – like in that rather funny but pointed movie “Leap of Faith”?
I think it would do Brian and Phil the world of good to put it on for their respective congregations – they would learn a lot from it – about the current predicament they are all in !!!
astute, sorry i digressed from what you were saying, i had some distractions.
you know its a sign somethings wrong, when regardless of cover-ups & media backflips & controversies, a mega-church just keeps on mega-growing.
that should say to church members its ’bout time to mega-leave..
Revelation 18:4 “Come out of her my people…” – that is what the Lord expects, if they really are the people of God, who are currently deceived, then when their eyes are opened, they need to leave en masse.
Mega churches are positioned to reach a ‘flash point’ so that when they have descended to the lowest common denominators in all areas, the influx from the world (‘religious people’) will avalanche, and the numbers will grow exponentially.
I’m sure that this is the intended ‘end game’ from all “church growth” ideologies and programs. Numbers mean everything, in terms of ‘success’, but Bible truth means nothing, if it gets in the way of a good ‘church growth’ idea…
astute, youre right.. separate ourselves. be in the world but not of it.
yep, numbers mean a lot. gotta build more franchises, er, uh, ‘churches’, to keep that money faucet flowing.. (to be able to afford “God’s work” of course)..
More from “Kingdom Cult(ure) Ministries” methinks.
How did Leaf gain such prominence so quickly? To be honest, when your head pastrix (or whatever her title is) has “sermons” like this;
then what chance do the C3 sheep have?
Can anyone translate that “sermon” for me? I couldn’t get past the soul-detox phrase…
Set Free said:
Subjectice, extrabiblical mysticism is already resident in the reform church and even taught in their seminaries.No need to look afar now , if you are looking for experiential Christianity.For many now, walking in the word of God and the Holy Spirit is not real anymore. You need to feel and and enter this mystical spiritual realm to experience the presence of God, as a means of grace they say. Quaker Richard Foster, Dallas Willard and southern Baptist Beth Moore are the reform church equivalent of the NAR teachers. Even Tim Teller is open to it.
The reform church is falling back in love with Rome , embracing the traditions of the desert monks maybe even some of Rome’s doctrines, who knows. It is all part of the ecumenical romance. If altering your state of consciousness through this meditative mind practice is acceptable, then don’t be surprise to hear Beth Moore say that praying in tongues to obtain the same experience is also good and acceptable. Any way I hear Beth Moore is coming to Australia for a conference. She is as good as any NAR charismatic when it comes to hearing from God and having new revelation. Read Gary Gilley on this old meditative spirituality, a revived practice of Rome, and given a new brand name call spiritual formation.
Set Free: Don’t throw all Reformed ministries under the bus, there are many very sound Reformed guys warning the body of Christ about mysticism, Beth Moore and Dallas Willard.
Set Free said:
Don’t worry, I am not throwing reformed churches under the bus. I am just joining many others in sounding out EARLY warnings to others and together we nip this false teachings in the bud. I don’t fancy the thought that I have just jumped out of the charismatic strange fires into some mystical hot frying pan.
Following up on my previous post above, it is typical of any Gnostic belief to embody the age old ‘Dualism’ – the belief that all that is ‘of the body’ (flesh like existence) is evil and all that is of ‘spirit’ is good. But that ‘spirit’ is not the Holy Spirit…
So, the asceticism that many Gnostic influenced belief systems employ (including the Emergent “contemplative meditations”) are just another way for the ‘spirit’ to divorce itself of being bound ‘in the flesh’. Dualism is meant to divorce good ‘spirit’ from evil ‘flesh’.
That’s why the JW’s teach that ‘the Christ spirit’ left the man Jesus at the cross, so that it wold be free of any influence from the ‘fleshly realms’. That is their foundation for rejecting the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Of course, this is pure bunkum, but that is how most false cults divorce the real Jesus Christ of the Bible, from their cut and paste look-alikes.
That’s why the Copeland’s had extensive teachings on “the higher life” – all of their works based beliefs were intended to bring about the same kind of results – that you would no longer be just a man or woman (flesh) – Hyper Faith would eventually turn you into a god (spirit) – even if you just became a ‘little god’ – for now.
Of course this whole cock and bull ‘theology’ goes belly up when you (the victim of deception) finally realises that the Bible only promises us immortality, but NOWHERE in scripture are we ever promised divinity – that is the lie of the Garden of Eden, promising people that “ye shall be as God… knowing good and evil”.
Forbidden fruit (from the false prophet’s tree) always tastes good, but it contains the deadly seeds of deception, so to partake of the bad fruit, is to swallow the seeds of further deception. True spiritual freedom can never come from such things as Hyper Faith, Latter Rain, Emergent, NAR, as they are all variations of that same deceptive theme that began when Lucifer promised mankind that they could become as God.
astute, a couple weeks ago i saw a girl who left JWs pointed this out. she became convinced JWs are a cult. but she still talks like she’s in a cult. why? because she left JWs only to go to URANTIA and is now ‘witnessing’ for them instead. from one cult to another..
(see how narrow the gate really is, ppl are having a very hard time finding it.)
anyway heres the JWs getting ‘spiritual’ at 30:30, ‘worshipping’ to pharrel’s “cult hit” (no pun intended hehe) called Happy, nfg
well, NFG – what are we going to call this video clip? ‘Happy-JW’s’ or ‘Happysong’ or ‘HillWitness’ – and what’s the bet that this mob already has Brian or Phil booked in for their 2015 conference?
“Truth has boundaries, but Error knows no bounds…”
As for leaving one cult and going to another, I knew a man in Redcliffe back in 1993, who had left a Latter Rain church up there, and had joined the Bahai’s, without even his closest family members knowing about the switch – deceptive and demonic…
They found out after he’d passed away, when the Bahai cult had gained admittance as the sole heir of all his money and property – they even hosted his funeral, and the church folks had no say in the matter – at all…
Next “praise and worship” song will be Led Zeppelins “Stairway to Heaven”.
austin & kiwipirate,
“what are we going to call this video clip?”
“Next “praise and worship” song will be Led Zeppelins Stairway to Heaven”.
i dont know what to say except its sad but the reality is narrow is the gate and few there be that find it.
theres a lady bank teller in the branch near me. at first i thought she was a moonie because she’s always artificially happy & keeps asking questions about how “wonderful” everything is etceters and she acts very different. but since then i realize she goes to a bill hybels seeker-sensitive church near me.
this further re-enforces the views i have on bill hybels & his “global leadership meetings” (which if your not aware are nothing but more of the one world church).
being in a group led down some unknown path by a false teacher is a scary thought.
yet if you asked most if they think theyre going to heaven they would answer “yes”.
all false teachers — movements will eventually be exposed for what they really are, and how they’ve ruined the eternity of many trusting individuals..
“For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.”
Good old chris pringle never disappoints. I quote from her instagram “remember you are growing healthy tree thoughts!!!!”.
As for caroline leaf ‘changing her genes’ , THAT i would love to see.
What, if anything, does this have to do with being Christian and preaching the True Word of God? Nothing at all. C3 nonsense.
Yes truth, it’s got nothing to do with The Gospel, which has power to transform.
I have to be honest, I have found her programs very helpful. I did her 21 day brain detox program and it has helped me live and apply God’s word in a very real sense. I have also seen the fruit of this in my families lives and many friends. the Peace, Joy and love that has flowed as a result has been amazing to watch in all our lives. I like how she uses science to back up what the word of God teaches rather than disprove the existence of God. I believe she is helping many people cross the line of faith today. Let’s face it we live in an age where people want more facts than just being told to have faith. I think God is using this ministry in a powerful way to opens the eyes of many. After listening to her I find myself praising God on another level because the verse, “we are wonderfully and fearfully made” has a whole new meaning. Its sad to read the comments and this post and realize that not much has changed from when Jesus walked the earth. Religious people still scough and would rather fight God’s plans than join them. I’d encourage all to have a look inside and ask if what we are doing is building up the body or tearing it down. Are we doing what our Rabbi has sent us out to do? Will we hear the words, “welcome good and faithful servant” or will we be told, “I never knew you, away from me you evil doers”.?? I used to support groups like this, now I fear for them. Praying for all my lost brothers and sisters in this group.
We will be praying for you Davyn. Your conscience should be informed by God, not Caroline Leaf and her heretical cohorts Patricia King, Stacey Campbell, Kenneth Copeland, just to name a few.
Proverbs 14:11-13 “The house of the wicked will be destroyed, But the tent of the upright will flourish. There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. Even in laughter the heart may be in pain, And the end of joy may be grief.…”
Cheers, Team Churchwatch.
Davyn – Caroline Leaf kept company with this crowd at the “School of Daniel”
This is her co-speaker Stacey Campbell at “work” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=macIFwHROaM
Cheers, Team Churchwatch
@Davyn: ” I like how she uses science to back up what the word of God teaches rather than disprove the existence of God.”
I cannot find 21 day brain detox anywhere in the Bible. I cannot find ‘changing my genes’ in the Bible. I cannot find ‘mini brain in the heart’ anywhere in the Bible.
@Davyn: “I’d encourage all to have a look inside and ask if what we are doing is building up the body or tearing it down.”
Tearing down falsehoods is EXACTLY what Jesus Christ and the Holy Apostles did.
@Davyn: “Let’s face it we live in an age where people want more facts than just being told to have faith.”
Not the kinds of ‘facts’ caroline leaf offers, that even her own science cannot prove.
@Davyn: “Its sad to read the comments and this post and realize that not much has changed from when Jesus walked the earth.”
I agree, even in the time of Christ, there were many fakes, false apostles, imitations, and those willing to merchandise innocent people for monetary benefit, even using the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, in vain.
@Davyn: “Praying for all my lost brothers and sisters in this group.”
So those exposing error and warning others are ‘lost’…scoffers or religious?
I cannot find using Holy Scripture where those who expose falsehoods and heretical doctrines concerning Jesus Christ, His Word and His people, are ‘lost’. Were the Apostles lost? The Disciples?
Instead of looking for new ‘fads’ or ‘theories’ Davyn…Rely on the Word of God which can never fail.
MARK 13:31: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
“I did [Leaf’s] 21 day brain detox program and it has helped me live and apply God’s word in a very real sense.”
So Davyn, would you say that it would have been better if God had refrained from sending the Holy Spirit, and sent instead Caroline Leaf? Is Caroline Leaf the one who “leads us into all truth”?
“I have also seen the fruit of this in my families lives and many friends. the Peace, Joy and love […]”.
The Bible says that love, joy, and peace are fruit that comes from the Holy Spirit – do you think that the Bible should be re-written to say:
“But the fruit of Caroline Leaf is love, joy, peace […]”?
One of the hallmarks of false teachers is that they usurp God, putting themselves in His place. This is what women such as Caroline Leaf do, and it’s clear that you are a willing accomplice in her undertaking, abetting her as you do in your spiritual dullness – the way you gush over her makes it appear as though you really do love her with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength…
“Are we doing what our Rabbi has sent us out to do?”
You weren’t sent by any Rabbi, Davyn: your father is the lord of flies (and yes, you are doing exactly what he has sent you to do).
‘Will we hear the words, “welcome good and faithful servant” or will we be told, “I never knew you, away from me you evil doers”.??’
Sadly for you, the answer is that you will be told the awful truth that God never knew you, and that you have allowed yourself to be led astray by the lies of conceited nonentities such as Caroline Leaf – someone who provides us with a none too stark object lesson as to why women should not be “teaching” in churches.
Amused, I agree with everything you say except “women should not be teaching in churches”. Over the top male feminism!
Annette, take it up with the Lord – ALL scripture is God-breathed and just because we may not like it, doesn’t make it incorrect.
‘God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership – in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3–5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.’
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
I appreciate all your comments. You can see when the Holy Spirit is convicting hearts as It usually results in a lot of malicious out bursts and bible verse quoting. Something the Pharisees were very good at.
Few questions: who made us the moral police?
Should we not be loving people and praying that our sovereign Lord would convict them through the Holy Spirit rather than judging them and condemning them?
Who made us the judges of good and evil? Is that not God’s role?
Is not the sin of humanity the fact that we wanted to be the judges of good and evil over trusting God? and now look where we are…..
Paul said something interesting to the Philippians which I would like your thoughts on: Philippians 1:15-18
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,
Surely as long as the name of Jesus is preached we should rejoice? Surely we serve a God of unity not of hate and disorder?
Now before you blast me with verses and call me a heretic, I implore you to think of our savior’s teachings and think through the questions I have asked….
Are we trying to play God? Are we in this group building up the body or fragmenting it?
I look forward to your thoughts.
My previous message wasn’t as loving as I would have liked it to be. It had a massive undertone of pride and arrogance. Forgive me.
, please know that this comes from a place of love. I’m not pointing fingers at anyone. I myself am a pharisee and struggle with judgment big time!
For so long I slandered and rebuked Hillsong for their teaching. I went there for 2 years and experienced no real growth until I started listening to the likes of John Piper, Eric Mason, CS Lewis and Spurgeon. I blamed them for my lack of growth and believed they were opposing the body and God’s will. I was a massive advocate of this group and did all that i could to discourage people from going to hillsong.
God has completely convicted me on this and humbled me beyond words. He’s shown me that I don’t know it all and that He looks at the heart rather than what I know. He is teaching me how to love more and more everyday. That he desires mercy not sacrifice.
Love opens the door to speak into peoples lives. People want to know Jesus and when we love them where they are then it opens the door to speak life and truth into their lives. Loving people prepares the soil to sew the seed that is God’s word.
You all have so much knowledge. Can we not love people and when God opens the door, speak into their lives?
Thank you Davyn, we appreciate your sincerity. If we can ask you the same questions we asked another commenter over on Hillsong ChurchWatch. Questions that should cause you to do your own prayerful research.
Why do you think Brian Houston publically endorses (and has his photo as a header on his twitter stream) heretic/modalist and Oneness Pentecostal T.D. Jakes. And how many lives are “changed” by such a purveyor and promoter of false WOF doctrines under the endorsement of Brian Houston? There’s another one to answer for as well.
One more question – as Bobbie Houston continues to invite false teachers to the yearly Colour Conference, how many women’s lives are “changed” by her endorsement.
Cheers, Team Churchwatch.
There is no doubt that Hillsong preach a sugar coated gospel. Not going to argue or defend that statement because I believe it to. I would go as far as to say that the majority of churches are like this today. I mean look at America. The biggest church is lead by Joel Osteen and I’m sure we all agree that his teachings are slightly off key . . .
However, what example does the bible give us to look at when dealing with people and situations like these. Lets use Paul for example and the Church or Corinth. I’m sure you will agree that the church of Corinth made Hillsong look pretty good. Getting drunk at communion, sleeping with each others wives, services going ballistic with people praying in tongues and basically no order whatsoever. I mean this church was jacked up as far as churches go and I’m sure there were people outside the church looking in and rebuking them, having discussions about how evil they are and discouraging people from going there.
What does Paul do? He loves them where they are at and works with them in a loving manner as he steers them closer towards Jesus. He doesn’t condone what they are doing but instead with a loving heart corrects them and at the same time encourages them and builds them up. Furthermore one of the greatest chapters in the bible comes from the book of the Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 13. Love. If I don’t have love then I am nothing.
You see God is showing me more and more that He looks at the heart. What does our heart say when we rebuke someone? Is it coming from a heart of love or a heart of pride, being right and knowing all the answers? Only we as individuals can answer that and each person will have to give an account to Jesus one day about how they loved His church, broken and all.
The truth is that we are all broken. We quote scripture that shows they are wrong, and they quote scripture that shows we are wrong. We can go back and forth like this all day long but the question is once again how does our Father in Heaven see it? Surely if He is our dad and we are His children He would want us to be loving one another and helping each other in our walk with Him rather than condemning one another to hell. If any of you have kids and look at them do you not feel the same way about them? When they are young and fighting about an issue, generally the case is that they are both wrong but in our hearts all we want is for them to get on with each other and love one another. They cant understand the complexities of life because they are young and immature and thus out of no fault of their own they make arguments on what they know at the time which is so far off from reality. Are we not the same in our relationship with God?
Jesus said something that when it was preached on hit me like a ton of bricks. He said: “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Love is so powerful and we cant even begin to comprehend the depth of the power behind it. Jesus displayed its immense power on the cross for all of us when He died for you and me. Yet whilst we were still sinners Christ died for us.
I don’t want to argue with you. You are my brother/sisters in Christ and I have nothing but love for you. I want to go out with you and be the salt and the light that Jesus spoke about. Surely we can do that together and as a result show people the power that is in the name Jesus Christ even when we are persecuted, reviled and mocked. Surely this is what God has called us to do?
Be blessed churchwatcher.
A little reading for you Davyn, the error always has to be addressed publicly, where the error was preached publicly.
Cheers, Team Churchwatch.
“The Bible Admonishes Us To Expose Error:
We are to TRY them. “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they be of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world” (I John 4: 1). All doctrine and teachers are to be tried according to the Word of God. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isa. 8:20),
We are to MARK them and AVOID them. “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them ” (Rom. 16:17). Those whose conduct and teaching contradicts the Word of God are to be marked and to be avoided.
We are to REBUKE them. “Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith ” (Titus 1: 13).
“Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers ” (Titus 1:9).
We are to have NO FELLOWSHIP with them. “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them ” (Eph. 5:11). Reprove means to censure, condemn, find fault, rebuke, and to refute. How can we obey this Scripture unless we try them by the Word of God?
We are to WITHDRAW from them. “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which ye received of us ” (II Thess. 3:6). We are to withdraw from those whose doctrine and conduct does not conform to the Word of God.
We are to TURN AWAY from them. Concerning the last days, he says that some will have “a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. from such turn away” for such people are “never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (11 Tim. 3:5,7). How can we turn away from them if we do not identify them, and this requires that their message be compared to the Word of God.
We are NOT to RECEIVE them into our house. “If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds ” (11 John 10, I 1). There is no doubt about who John is speaking about, it is ” Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, ” (v.9). By radio, TV, music and literature, false prophets are brought into the homes of many Christians today. Brethren, this ought not to be!
We are to REJECT HERETICS. “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject ” (Titus 3: 10). We should reject those who deny redemption by the blood of Christ. There are many who deny this or some other doctrine of the Word of God. If they will not respond to being admonished, then they are to be rejected.
We are to look out for those who preach another gospel. Paul warned about those who preached “another Jesus , another spirit , or another gospel” (II Cor. 11:4). How can we know them unless we judge their Jesus, their spirit, and their gospel by the Word of God? Paul called such preachers “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ” (11 Cor. II: 13). He explains in v. 14-15 that these preachers are the ministers of Satan. The God-called man must be just as faithful today in exposing the ministers of Satan.
Paul warned the Galatians about those who “pervert the gospel of Christ.” He also said, “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (See Gal. 1:6-9). Multitudes today are preaching a perverted gospel.
We are to SEPARATE from them. “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch no the unclean thing; and I will receive you ” (II Cor. 6:17). This makes it plain. God’s people are to come out of apostasy and religious error. How can any Bible believer remain in the National Council or World Council of Churches? How can they remain among compromising evangelicals and wishy-washy fundamentalists?
It Is Right To Name Names
Many mistakenly believe that it is wrong to expose error and to name the guilty teachers; but they are wrong according to the Bible.
Paul named Peter publicly. Peter was guilty of unscriptural practice. “But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed , But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?” (Gal. 2:11-14). T
Paul named Demas for loving the world. “For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world” (II Tim. 4:10). Those who forsake the cause of Christ for worldly living and pleasures should be named and exposed. (Christian Rock!)
Paul named Alexander the coppersmith. “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil. the Lord reward him “cording to his works: Of whom be thou ware also, for he hath greatly withstood our words ” (II Tim. 4:14-15). It is clear that this is not a personality problem, but a doctrinal problem. Alexander had withstood the words and doctrine of Paul. He was an enemy to the truth. Godly pastors face the same problem every day. They stand and proclaim the truth, then their members go home and hear this truth disputed by radio and TV preachers.
John named Diotrephes. “I wrote unto the church; but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not” (III John 9). He related how this man had prated against him “with malicious words ” (v. 10). He further said, “Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God, but he that doeth evil hath not seen God ” (v. I 1). It is not wrong to name those whose doctrine and practice is contrary to the Word of God.
In fact, the whole Bible abounds in examples of false prophets being named and exposed. All this modern day talk about love, used as an excuse for not exposing error, is not really biblical love but is really sloppy agape.
Moses called the name of Balaam. (See Num. 22-25). Peter exposed “the way of Balaam , who loved the wages of unrighteousness ” (II Pet. 2:15). Balaam was a prophet that was in the work for money, just like some of the TV false prophets today. They beg for money and live like kings, while multitudes of innocent people send them their hard earned money. They are always building colleges, hospitals, TV network satellites, and amusement parks that have a water slide for Jesus. And then we are suppose to keep our mouth shut about these religious charlatans. How can we be silent and be true to God?
Jude exposed “the error of Balaam ” (Jude I 1). John exposed “the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication ” (Rev. 2:14). This gets right to the heart of the matter, concerning the doctrine of separation. Balaam never did curse Israel even though he wanted the wages that he was offered to do so.
False teachers are breaking down the barrier of separation between God’s people and false religion. There is too little preaching and teaching on the doctrine of separation. Balaam breached the doctrine of personal separation by causing the men of Israel to commit fornication with the Moabite women. He breached the doctrine of ecclesiastical separation by causing the men of Israel to bow down to Baal. This brought a curse upon Israel. Until we get back to teaching the truth about personal and ecclesiastical separation, we can expect the continued widespread havoc that we have today.
Nathan identified the man. There was a man in a very high place who was a secret adulterer. Surely this man who held the highest office in the land could not be rebuked by a lowly unpopular prophet. Nathan went right into the presence of David, revealed the sin in a parable form, and then told the enraged David, “Thou art the man ” (II Sam. 12:7).
It seems to be believed by many that some people are too high and mighty to be named or exposed. Men in high places, pastors of large churches, and those with great radio or TV audiences, are supposedly above criticism. Whatever they may do or say, no matter how contrary to the Bible it may be, is supposedly all right. Nothing could be further from the truth.”
I couldn’t reply to your other comment for some reason.
You make a good number of points and I can definitely see where you are coming from. I will definitely give it another read through and pray about it.
Just one last thought from my end: what if we are misapplying the word of God? What if what Paul and the apostles stress in regards to your post below, is directed towards people who don’t preach Jesus as salvation? Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus etc. Once again I know that Hillsong and C3 don’t teach the word in the fullness of how it should be but they still preach Jesus Christ crucified for sinners.
Based on what Paul said to the Philippians that I mentioned in my earlier message, maybe we should be rejoicing that they are preaching Jesus Christ and moving forward in love?
Anyway, that is all that I have on my heart.
Be blessed my friend.
We would love to rejoice along with you if they were preaching Christ but are they? The questions continue to go unanswered (not by you) but by the leaders of these movements. Why do they continue to expose their congregations to false teachers i.e. T.D. Jakes – a man who denies the Trinity as a oneness Pentecostal. And for all his disclaimers, he still does. Would you fellowship in a church that allowed a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness in their pulpit. It’s no different. We are to be discerning and it’s not loving to leave these dear people without the biblical warning we see so clearly in scripture.
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
I don’t know enough about this or these people to comment any further.
All the best mate.
Thanks for the chat.
“Those who forsake the cause of Christ for worldly living and pleasures should be named and exposed. (Christian Rock!)”
I know we’re going completely off topic here (or are we?), but as someone who’s been involved in the Christian, Church, Praise & Worship AND “secular” music scene for over 20 years, I’d love to hear your explanation of this.
Just one question:
“God has convicted me on this……” *how* were you convicted? was it via scripture *in context* or through a quiet “inner voice” that you believe was/is the Holy Spirit?
He has done this a number of means. Scripture, sermons and the Holy Spirit. He has rocked me to my very core. You see I thought I knew Him. That I had all the answers and that my theology of Him was full proof and flawless. Anyone who disagreed with this theology and God’s word was a heretic in my eyes and it always left me feeling very angry towards them as they were going against the body.
This world is filled with fighting, hate, pride and bitterness. Surely the thing that separates us from the world is our love for one another? We can trust that in time God will open their eyes to the truth (the same way He did with us) but until then we should be loving them as I believe this is what opens the doors to speak truth into peoples lives.
We serve a God who by nature is so massive that I am constantly struggling to get my head around him, and that is exactly how God should be. I have less and less answers and more and more questions. This journey He has me on is unreal and I have never experienced life like this before. A life of love is really the best way to live. That doesn’t mean accepting what people do and say but loving them regardless of what they do and say just the way our Lord did with us. Let us be patient, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love people who reveal Christs power to the world.
“Surely the thing that separates us from the world is our love for one another?”
This is not true. It’s misguided at best. The bible flatly opposes that view. That is the false social gospel view which Hillsong also pushes. God sets us apart through Christ. It is not our love for each other. It is His love for us. And we only know about this love through the preaching of the gospel.
Often your above view is taken from a misreading of John 17:23 of Jesus’ high priestly prayer.
“I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.”
But if you read ALL of what Jesus was saying from John 14 to John 17, you will come to a different conclusion. The Christian love between each-other is only a witness against the world because the world hates God and his people.
Look at how Jesus parallels his words in John 14:30-31:
“I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father.”
Here – the world may know that God sent his son through Jesus’ obedience. This is a negative witness against the world and its ruler.
John’s gospel often highlights how the world is against God, His Son and his people. (He even lays this foundations in John 1.)
The ruler of this world has no claim on Jesus, “but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father.”
And how does Jesus bring us into His life?
He prays, “Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.” (John 17:11) Notice the repetition again.
Now we are made ONE in Christ. We didn’t do it. This is God’s work.
Likewise, the world has no claim on us for we are now of God. How?
“I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. ” John 17:14
Once again our very existence is a testimony against the world and its love for the darkness. Why? Because Christ has given us the Father’s word and the world hates us because we now partake in this word – the good news of Jesus Christ. Jesus even says on our behalf to God the Father, “keep them from the evil one”.
This is Jesus – interceding on our behalf as High Priest. He is doing the work of setting us apart so that the world may know us:
“Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.” John 17:17
Hopefully you can see the conclusion is not emphasised on us, setting ourselves apart by loving each other. To simply read the conclusion like that is to completely miss the point.
Here is Jesus again interecding between God and us:
“The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.” John 14:22-23
If you want the church to be one – preach the wonderful saving news of the gospel. Declare the work of Christ’s interceding work on behalf of sinners!
You can love God and love neighbour til kingdom come. But that is not going to set you apart.
Preaching the gospel will. Convicting sinners of their sins will. Illuminating the wondeful saving work of God in scripture will make sinners rejoice together in one accord. And guess what that means? The world will hate it.
I expect you are familiar with 1 Corinthians chapter 13, the love chapter. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2013&version=KJV;ESV
The KJV word “charity” is a good alternative to the word “love” because 21st century society has romanticized the word “love” excessively. THE ESV version is useful because several words from KJV are not commonly used these days.
Your entries appear to wholeheartedly agree with “4 Love is patient and kind”. Sure – I expect every person whether Christian or not would have no problems with that statement. After that you ignore the rest of the passage. Yes God’s love is way bigger than human love and past human understanding. However He is not a cosmic Santa Claus who shows love to unrepentant sinners indiscriminately- He is a holy God, a God that loves truth and righteousness. A love that demands justice as well as mercy, repentance of sins to gain His forgiveness.
If love does not envy or boast does God hate enviousness and boasting (C3 bragging about church statistics)? If “love rejoices in the truth” does God hate lies and deception (omission of details about Kong Hee’s trial – if revealed -> plummeting donations)?
Do you realise that telling fellow Christians to stop exposing false teachers is *exceptionally unloving* to those Christians who do not know the truth? Omission of truth is a lie. Satan is the Father of Lies. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+8%3A44&version=KJV If you know the truth and do not tell it to save others’ spiritual lives, their blood is potentially on your hands. (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekiel+33&version=KJV, https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=proverbs+24%3A11-12&version=KJV). How can you battle spiritually if you refuse to speak the truth and just hope that showing love to other people will be enough to save them(https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+corinthians+10%3A3-6&version=KJV, https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+6%3A14&version=KJV)?
This sentence is especially concerning ” This journey He has me on is unreal and I have never experienced life like this before.” How do you know for sure this is GOD if you haven’t experienced this before? When you get feelings and impressions you believe are from God do you have your bible out, analysing carefully what you believe you’re getting told?
If the Holy Spirit is truly communicating with you He will welcome your constant evaluation ALWAYS for as long as you LIVE. (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+16%3A7-14&version=KJV) If it is not God you will feel rebuked for questioning His authority and “not having enough faith to just trust Him”. God’s character does not change. He cannot lie (Titus 1:2)
P.S. the last person whom I knew who believed in “all you need is love” eventually embraced Universalism and left church. Over-emphasis on God is LOVE is potentially very dangerous spiritually. I pray that you return to all of God’s truth as revealed in the BIBLE- both positive and negative aspects according to human understanding.
“For so long I slandered and rebuked Hillsong for their teaching.”
daryn, interesting comment. who said anything about ‘slandering’? nobody here has ‘slandered’. which makes me question your “true” motive for posting here..
and why did you “stop” defending the faith?
Hey no false gods
No one said anything. I said, for so long I slandered and rebuked them. I never said anyone here slandered anyone. I was simply asking some questions. What is the state of our heart as we post these comments and write these blogs? Are we doing it in a loving way or in a prideful way? I cant answer those questions for each person. Its between you and God.
I haven’t stopped defending the faith. I’ve simply decided to live it and love people regardless of what they do or say.
In any case Jesus didn’t send us to defend the faith. I think He is quite capable of doing that Himself. He sent us to be the salt and the light. To love people and through that love make disciples who make disciples. Raise people up in the truth, His word, but it has to be done from a position of humility as we don’t have all the answers and most importantly we need to have love in our hearts.
@daryn “a lot of malicious out bursts and bible verse quoting. Something the Pharisees were very good at.”
The pharisees never had the New Testament..It wasn’t written yet.
There were also woes to Scribes and lawyers!
Anyway, I can’t see why you mention being ‘blasted’ with Bible verses when all i counted was 2. Hardly call that being ‘blasted’, if that was what you expected.
“The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached.”
I can’t agree that preaching Christ and his Holy Word with false motives is o.k.
We see what eventually happens is that people buy and ‘conference’ these false ‘products’ and when they are exposed as false, it is the name of Christ that has been disgraced, while they walk away with their money, only to re-appear with a new book, painting, seminar or product a month later.
The Holy Bible warns us of all these things, false christs, apostles and man-made doctrines condemned by Jesus Christ Himself and the Holy Apostles.
If using the Holy Bible to discern truth, links people to being labelled a Pharisee by some of these ‘merchandisers’, then the Writers of the Holy Bible must be pharisees to them as well.
Imagine that! even the Holy Apostles, under the direction of the Holy Spirit must be ‘pharisees’ for using the True Words of God, to teach truth and expose error according to some of these ‘pastors’. …A horrible deception.
The word ‘Holy’ has disappeared from some of these people’s dictionaries, especially when it comes to a Holy God and His Word, the Holy Scriptures.
As far as i can tell, there are thousands of sites like this one, fighting to defend the True Word of God, because they refuse to let the carnal world water-down or just plain distort God’s Holy Word for money, influence or popularity.. The curse at the end of Revelation for adding to God’s Word is not a ‘naughty, naughty’ …It is explicit and a very strong warning.
Hey The truth
My apologies for my first message. It was not written with a loving heart but of one with arrogance and pride. The Holy Spirit still has lots of work to do in me:-).
As for you not being able to agree with what Paul said, that is between you and God. I believe that all scripture is God breathed and thus if I think anything that contradicts it then I have some wrestling to do with the word of God.
I think the Pharisees were Pharisees because of the state of their hearts towards God’s people. They thought they had all the answers, that they were the holiest people and that everyone else who opposed them or thought differently was wrong and by definition a heathen and blasphemer.
All I am asking us is what is the state of our hearts when we rebuke people? Is it coming from a heart of love or a heart of pride and arrogance? Only you can answer that and its between you and our Heavenly Father.
Jesus said, 34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
I know you’re thinking that through these sights we are defending the faith and fighting off all the false teachers but what if God intended us to fight with love? What if our strongest weapon is to love people in their mess just as Jesus patiently did with us? What if we chose to love people regardless of what they did or said?
What would this world look like if Christians lead with love . . . . .
Just a thought.
Be blessed my friend.
Davyn – Love to hear your response to the scriptures posted about exposing false teachers publically. Are you suggesting the “state of the heart” was an issue for those who were commended for doing it (by being included in the canon of scripture)?
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch
Davyn, I do not disagree with the Apostle Paul. I was referring the point that the Apostle Paul rejoiced, not because of evil minded preachers twisting the truth, but rejoiced because people eventually wanted to know more than these false teachers could give them, and thus were guided to the true knowledge of Christ. Their chief problem/error was their self-seeking motive. Paul rejoices at the good result of these bad intentions.
Nowhere in Scripture does Paul ‘encourage’ these false teachers to carry on with deception.
The GREATEST kindness we can do..is to warn those who are going on a dangerous way…or was John the Baptist wasting his time?
Wouldn’t you warn your children if they were in danger? That is a heart of love.
It certainly isn’t from pride or arrogance to expose error…it is a COMMAND from God’s Holy Word. I wouldn’t call God’s commands prideful or arrogant.
Should i love sodom and gomorrah? Should i love sin? Should i love error when i know i can find truth in the Bible?
Our PERFECT example is Jesus Christ. When He rebuked…was it prideful and arrogant? Shouldn’t He have just ‘loved’ them as you say? No.
The answer from CW in the above post is far better than anything i could do, and beautiful to read.
I will just leave you with this; Especially the first sentence:
“Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
“Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
Interesting that God says that He rebukes and disciplines. . . . . Not sure where He commands us to do His role for Him.
What are your thoughts on this passage and how it applies in our life?
“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
It seems to me that judging is our Fathers role and a little past our pay grade don’t you think?
Different story if you are loving someone and rebuking them out of love.
I don’t see a whole lot of love going on over here. More fear and condemnation.
Furthermore we have no idea how long it took Corinth to get their act together. I’m sure it didn’t take a few days. I’m sure it took a lot of patience and love. Paul was writing to them after hearing what was going on there. He was still encouraging them and building them up. Speaking life all the time.
How do we know that it didn’t take Corinth years to get to where we are today?
The Responsibility To Rebuke – John Macarthur.
“Among many pastors and church leaders today there is a popular rationale that proclaiming truth is the viable alternative to rebuking error. Rather than wrestling with false teachers and their heresies, they’re content to cover their eyes, plug their ears, and “stay positive” in their teaching.
But there is no either/or when it comes to preaching the truth and confronting error—that’s a false, unbiblical dichotomy that contradicts the examples we see throughout Scripture. In his letter to Titus, the apostle Paul made it clear that both duties are fundamental to the work of a church leader:
For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. (Titus 1:7–9)
Pacifism has never been a pastoral option in the war for people’s souls. Any pastor who teaches faithfully is called both to exhort believers in sound doctrine, and to refute those who oppose sound doctrine.
Pastors have the God-given obligation to cultivate discernment among their congregations. And that discernment is needed to give their people an understanding of the truth necessary to protect them from the ubiquitous error that incessantly assaults them. Antilegō (to refute) means literally “to speak against.” The Lord’s preachers and teachers are to be polemicists against unsound doctrine that goes under the guise of biblical truth.
Not long after Paul himself ministered in Crete, “many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,” were causing trouble and confusion in the churches there (Titus 1:10). They were not to be ignored, much less tolerated, but were to “be silenced because they [were] upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach, for the sake of sordid gain” (v. 11). They were particularly dangerous because they arose from within the congregations. “They profess to know God,” Paul said, “but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed” (v. 16).
Even the spiritually mature church at Ephesus was not immune to false teaching. “I know that after my departure,” Paul warned elders from that church, “savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them” (Acts 20:29–30).
Although false teachers in the church exist under many guises, they all, in one way or another, contradict biblical truth. They are the enemies of sound doctrine and, therefore, of God and His people. Simply to accept Scripture as the inerrant Word of God does not protect against its being misunderstood or even perverted. To give personal insights and decisions of church councils authority equal to Scripture is to contradict God’s Word—just as surely as is denying the deity of Christ or the historicity of His resurrection. The final warning of Scripture is: “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book” (Revelation 22:18–19, emphasis added).
The dual role of the godly preacher and teacher is to proclaim and to defend God’s Word. In the eyes of the world and, tragically, in the eyes of many genuine but untaught believers, to denounce false doctrine—especially if that doctrine is given under the guise of evangelicalism—is to be unloving, judgmental, and divisive. But compromising Scripture in order to make it more palatable and acceptable, whether to believers or to unbelievers, is not “speaking the truth in love” (Ephesians 4:15). It is speaking falsehood and is the furthest thing from godly love. It is a subtle, deceptive, and dangerous way to contradict God’s own Word. The faithful pastor must have no part in it. He himself tolerates, and he teaches his people to tolerate, only sound doctrine.
All Christians share the biblical mandate to cultivate biblical discernment. Remaining passive in the church and ignoring the cancerous effects of false teaching is a serious dereliction of our duty as believers. We are to be equipped with the biblical tools necessary to identify, expose, repudiate, and excommunicate all wolves who sneak into the church. Out of love for Christ, His people, and the pure exclusive gospel that He delivered, each of us must take up arms in the ongoing war for the truth.”
*** So Davyn – this section below particularly applies to you?
“In the eyes of the world and, tragically, in the eyes of many genuine but untaught believers, to denounce false doctrine—especially if that doctrine is given under the guise of evangelicalism—is to be unloving, judgmental, and divisive. But compromising Scripture in order to make it more palatable and acceptable, whether to believers or to unbelievers, is not “speaking the truth in love” (Ephesians 4:15). It is speaking falsehood and is the furthest thing from godly love. It is a subtle, deceptive, and dangerous way to contradict God’s own Word.”
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.
“I don’t SEE a whole lot of love going on over here. More FEAR and condemnation.”
what fear? many here came out of this stuff. if not, then very similar stuff. nobody here is ‘afraid’ of it. how can you be afraid of what you already know?
like i said in my 1st post.. it is evident from your comments & attitude you came here with an agenda. furthermore now in addition it is also clear you see only what you choose to see.
you come on here claiming God does not need us to defend the faith.
contradiction#1: then you claim you yourself are still defending the faith..
contradiction#2: then you keep insisting we shouldn’t be doing that.
there’s your matthew 7:1-5.
we have every right to speak out also.
“Love opens the door to speak into peoples lives. People want to know Jesus and when we love them where they are THEN IT OPENS THE DOOR to speak life and truth into their lives. Loving people prepares the soil to sew the seed that is God’s word.”
maybe you need to watch that myles munroe clip now circulating the web. what you’re saying interestingly mirrors munroe..
“dont preach the cross! nobody wants to hear about that. tell them something else..”
davyn, you say: “when we love them where they are THEN IT OPENS THE DOOR to speak life and truth”…
correction: but there is no need to water down anything, and no need to do a bait-and-switch either:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (john 14:6)
we dont have to apologize for the Gospel, or for ever telling the truth even when that includes exposing errors. you tell the truth, if the truth turns someone off, so be it..
@davyn: It seems to me that judging is our Fathers role and a little past our pay grade don’t you think?
I don’t see a whole lot of love going on over here. More fear and condemnation.”
That’s a pretty big ‘judgement’ call davyn.Quite blatant double standards when you look at your two sentences together.
Does anyone else here think that if a female C3 pastor was informed about Stephen Dent’s abuse of his wife or his sexual abuse of his stepson, the issue would’ve been handled much differently?
Greetings..Are You still online as a current website?..I just recently watched Caroline Leaf on You tube..Her and her hubby really seem to Love the Lord Jesus with all their hearts..I would have switched her off immediately if not..She has some good things to say..I noticed She was on TBN(wrong move) and some of her buddies are not my type..BUTT hey IM no one big in the Big shot Bible Dept..IVE looked at a lot of her talking at various churches..She speaks Gods word all the time..Anyway..You can Probably help me out here..Thank You..
Cheers, Team ChurchWatch.